Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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The Freakshow

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.
I think this should only come about if there is an enemy champion that can actually see you (is within viewing range of you right now). Otherwise the mechanic might show up above your head and reveal you accidentally.

E.G. - Nidalee and Caitlyn traps reveal you everywhere. This particular icon above your head should only reveal you if you are within range of actually being viewed (not pressing Q as Caitlyn in a bush near red revealing her when no one is nearby).

But yeah, this is a good idea.


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Svezar

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

no change needed.. its awesome the way it is


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PhyrWindo

Junior Member

08-27-2013

Any offensive skill who requires a target reveals you.

Any skill who is Area/skillshot doesn't.

I don't see what's the problem. Is a little advantage to skillshots.


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Phaserhawk

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'd actually really like that change. Some sort of, "Recently attacked you from brush, is revealed while within that brush."

I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.
Look at it themeatically. If I am hiding in a bush, I should be still, quiet, ready to pounce. If I start channeling my ultmate, or firing my wrist gun, then I just exposed myself while hiding regardless if I hit an enemey. Any action aside from movement, from withing the Brush should reveal the champion. Period, end of story. The damage trigger from Traps, no, the casting of the trap in the bush, yes.


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Grand Eleven

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I've tried numerous times to explain to jungle players that pulling red into a brush does not protect him from being smite stolen ... now it's listed clearly by a red.


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Fomorian27

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Couldn't it be as simple as having you go from transparent to full opaque in the bush? Does that even happen currently?

Also, a couple of unrelated points:

1) Recently akali was changed so that when she hit someone from her shroud, her fade back into the shroud was altered. Can you tell us what the fadeback time after attacking from bush currently is vs akali's? Any plans on changing that fadeback time?

2) I know a lot of people are sentimentally attached to the nunu "empire" ultimate, but I think it's generally bad for the game. Here's morello saying that it's a "nasty engine related bug" that's hard to fix:

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.co...597828#3597828

However, when it actually was fixed, it was labeled a bug and hotfixed:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com...70197#24570197

The main argument people had for saying that it shouldn't reveal is that it doesn't deal damage. Well, nasus wither doesn't deal damage, only slows one target, and still reveals nasus.

The other argument was that nunu would be useless without this ability. If people are really relying on this ability to get the full use out of nunu ult, then maybe it's time to reevaluate the strength of the skill and champion.


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StarTribal

Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?
It should work the way it works now, which is rather elegant and intuitive if you understand why things are the way they are. It boils down to three statements:

1. Targeted actions--any action that requires a target to function, including point-click spells and autoattacks--reveal the actor to the target from brush and fog-of-war.

I think the only exception to this is Caitlyn's Ace in the Hole, which should probably be cleaned up to match this. This is why you can see someone attacking you from across a wall, Dazzle from brush reveals Taric, and Conflagration from brush reveals Brand. Similarly, this is why you can't see Soraka healing someone in brush, because she is revealed only to the target of her heal, who could see her anyway.

2. Skillshots show their particles when the particle enters enemy vision, but never reveal their caster.

Historically, it has been hard for Riot to make this happen consistently on the technological side; many of us remember the days of invisible Piltover Peacemakers and Javelin Tosses from brush simply because the particle was rendered about 2 seconds late, and this problem still pops up every now and then. This rule also encompasses persistent-effect ground-target AoE abilities (e.g. Anivia's Glacial Storm, Veigar's Event Horizon); if part of the particle is in your field of vision, you can see it (either in whole or in part). If the entire visual effect occurs outside of your team's vision, then you can't see it.

3. PBAoE (player-based area-of-effect) abilities reveal neither their caster nor their particles, except for particles generated on units, unless you can already see the caster.

This is the sticky one: it covers spells like Nunu's Absolute Zero, Riven's Ki Burst, and Amumu's Curse of the Sad Mummy. In all cases, you cannot see the caster or the effects of the spell when cast from brush, unless you can see the caster already. You can, however, see the effects generated on anyone who is affected by the spell--the ice forming under your feet as you walk through a charging Absolute Zero that you can't see, or the bandages wrapping up targets snared by Curse of the Sad Mummy even while the big circle is hidden. If a Riven Ki Bursts while obscured by brush, the only clue you would have is if somebody got stunned.


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Salganos

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I think a consistent system would be that a champion is revealed by dealing damage, and that any AOE or projectile is visible on its own, regardless of whether or not it can deal damage.

Nunu's Ult should never be concealed, even if Nunu himself is and remains so. The same goes for other large AOEs that get concealed if cast on brush (e.g.: years ago a Pantheon Ult was concealed for me by being in a different bush, and I've seen other example's more recently).

Other inconsistencies are that some skillshots and AOEs do reveal their caster even if they hit nothing, and this should not happen under the preceding paradigm. The spell itself should remain visible, of course.

Other consistent options would be that everything that affects an enemy in any way reveals the caster every time, as well as the spell, or that all casts (at least ones that can be offensive in any direct fashion) reveal the caster every time.

Edit: I think in the end I'd like a system where non-damaging actions are at least visible on their own, and damaging actions reveal the caster the moment they are set loose (i.e: after channel times). Nunu's Ult would best be divided into the first followed by the second, however, and treated as two separate but linked casts. Ahri's Foxfire would not count as a damaging cast, but the projectiles firing would, as a sort of damaging "proc" cast.

The affliction of damage itself would have no necessary effect at that point, and certain casts like traps could be excluded from "damaging projectile" if desired, since they don't actually go anywhere or do anything right away, and it part of their point.

There are so many ways to do this. Just make it consistent, please.


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Arcane Ezreal

Member

08-27-2013

There is an error with SR's inner towers. Blue side's tower has a tid bit shorter range than Purple's. I think it might be another factor, but it seems like it when running around a specific corner.

Also, when teleporting the enemies can see you in a brush. Which makes tp ganks weak sometimes.


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Hawkzile

Member

08-27-2013

Skill Shots: No Reveal.
Non-Skill Shots that are aggressive: Reveal.

As for skills that require channeling the fact that the user of the skill is in a highly vulnerable state, I believe that they should remain hidden in bushes and such.