Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Kcugi

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I dunno what changes you will implemend to the bush vision, but... Altho it has it's flaws & bugs, using bushes to your advantage is important factor in this game.

For ex. if u r a support like Taric and you force a fight with "stonger" enemy at lv2 in botlane fight.
While I am being focused, and run to our bush, enemy follows me and in the exact same time they take W detonated in their face & I flash back to their bush to get rid of their vision from me and survive with that 50HP while my ADC secures double kill...

I wouldn't want that to be changed

But what about Kog'maw & Nidalee spears? When Nidalee throws her Jawelyn Toss she is not revealed, and the spear itself is invisible often but it's another matter. Why is Koggy revealed when he casts his R?
Either Nida should be (considering her invispears bug) or Koggy should not.

Also wards, it's not happening often, but it happens... I mean wards in a wall. When I am on purple side of a map, and sometimes I try to put a ward through a wall on river and calculate wrongly the distance. The ward is placed on the wall, while don't giving vision to either side of it.

Or another thing. I have bush warded, enemy is standing there and he is hiting me harder than I do him, so I run to get out of enemy range. I go out of the bush, and enemy becomes invisible, even tho I have ward in that bush... I mean, WTF?

This is all that concerns me about the vision mechanic.


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ZodiacLegend

Senior Member

08-27-2013

As much as I love doing Nunu's Absolute Zero in brush and getting a ton of kills in ARAM, I would have to agree. If any skill is being casted, it should atleast reveal the skill effect (maybe not the character).


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PoisonedTea

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I don't see any reason why skill shots should reveal they are skill shots just away from where your champion is. On slows an stuns only if you damage the person and its not a skill shot. I think it is better to have less skills reveal you then more.

Well could have a small eye on you champion if your in the fog of war. Like Evelynn you need to change Evelynn so she has both. Then there is the sight things nid trap. I guess it could be an over lap I think that's how it works on eve.

Is it needed I can see how it be helpful


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Magepie

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

auto attacks and targeted skills/spells should reveal if used from a bush either for a short amount of time or until the attacker leaves the bush. skill shots should reveal if it damages a champions. traps should not reveal.

so in nunu's case, he can still ult ambush ppl from bush but will be revealed if the ult goes off. having particles/more readability when ppl are in his ult is needed so new players do not just blow up.


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Epic Dreamer

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Things are working as they should...

Auto attacks are an "Extension" of yourself, and as such, when hitting an opponent, a part of you is "out of the bush" and revealed.

Skillshots, are separate from you, and therefore only the skillshot is revealed (and shouldn't be so until they actually leave, which would actually make them even MORE deadly close to the edge!)

Targeted skills, if they only do DAMAGE, shouldn't reveal you, however the instant they have any CC attached to them, are infinitely more deadly, and should reveal...

As to Nunu's Ultimate, it does "reveal" in a sorts, as that slow is a big give away (granted it can be hidden with other "visible" slows) The thing is, thats part of the strategy of Nunu :P


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mertatron

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'd actually really like that change. Some sort of, "Recently attacked you from brush, is revealed while within that brush."

I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.
or I was thinking of the eye like for eve's stealth

but it goes down to the same thing ^^ .. a particule already used


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Splinterheart

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Brought a small bit of EUW feedback over, nothing major:

"About fog of war and brushes:
IMHO if you fire a skillshot from sight range, when you are in a brush, you should be releaved, just like with Teleport.
Can you imagine a 6 stacks cho using rupture from the Baron /Dragon small grass and still remain hidden!? Come on!

For the brushes overall i would say every agressive move should reveal the person inside the brush to allow for counterplay/counteraggression."

Also most people are in favor of Nunu ulting invisbly from the brush.


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DollaSign

Member

08-27-2013

In regards to the Nunu ult. I think it should be hidden until STEPPED IN and the slow effect is applied. that way, he can still bait people into it through bush channeling, but the second somebody steps in it, is slowed by it, etc. the ult AoE is shown and/or himself as well. I feel like that is the best option. that way people wont completely rage but it is also fair for players providing a little more counter play to it. just my opinion


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TrueShrike

Member

08-27-2013

Just an idea, instead of bushes being set to be their own "fog of war" area that you have to enter to have visibility into, is there a way to render it so that it requires your champ to just be MUCH closer to be able to get visual into a bush? This works out more realistically as someone who is hiding one pixel into a bush should be seen before you are in the bush to see them. This would allow bushes to be in the same "realm" of space as the regular terrain but requires closer proximity to begin getting view into. It still allows stealth, but does not allow the cheap shots or bush hugging to stop auto attacks or ability targets as if your close enough to cast some of the mid to low range abilities you would most likely be close enough to the bush to "see" or perceive where your cast should be.

The alternate to this would be to have a .5 or so second delay as someone ran into a bush that the person is still able to be seen albeit as a shadowy figure that dissolves into the brush unless your following.

I think either of these would stop cheap play based on engine/coding restrictions and would also allow developers to tweak those champs that actually USE stealth or bush interactions to scale better or work more like what one would imagine, example being Nidalee or other stealth champs immediately vanish in brush and require others to nearly enter bush to become seen. This I think would also stop the Nunu ult from being unseen before you stumble into a slow w/o having to completely rewrite how the particles interact based on view, its more of a one stop solvent than per champion or per skill or per attack basis. Base it on a type of fog of war density related to "areas" on the map. This I think would also open up maps for other arena types as instead of every bush becoming a super stealth you can add which bushes are to be used strategically versus some that are just show. Have some that do not impede vision as much as others which allows thick brush versus light, which could even add in movement speed bonus or negation based on champ and terrain interaction. Water champs moving faster through water, most champs getting a slightly reduced movement in thick brush while jungle champs move freely, etc.


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Te5ma

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I don't think that Nunu's ult should reveal him. Honestly that would hurt him so badly if he were revealed by ulting. IMO only targeting actions that you have to actually click on the champ should reveal you in the brush/fog.