Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Telzin

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Good lord please fix the invisible skillshot bug.

It doesn't apply to strictly skillshots, either. For instance I've had a Tryndamere use his Spinning Slash out of a brush, but it appeared he was just running out of it, except everything he passed was randomly taking damage. Things like that, it's very odd and very annoying to have to deal with.

Also, what gives with some brushes, such as the mid brushes in Howling Abyss, that don't appear to be curved to the point of blocking vision, but yet two champions can be standing almost next to each other near the 'bend' in the brush and not see each other?

Also, can you perhaps look into how the game determines what is or isn't in brush? Too often I've dropped wards (and traps) that I guess were on the edge because they didn't get put into brush, however upon later placing my much larger character model directly on it (and even walking closer to out of the brush) I not once was revealed from brush. How can one place be both in and not in a brush?

Thanks.


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starbringer

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

however you change the brush to work, abilities like yi meditate, fiddle channeling his ult and vi charging her dash should never reveal them, even though vi and fiddle are taking "aggressive action."


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Cliff Walrus

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBlazer View Post
Another annoying/weird edge-case that causes some unintuitive results and, imho, should be fixed:

(A) When I am inside a bush, and the enemy champion is inside the same bush, we can see each other, he autoattacks me, and I step out of the bush a split second later, he disappears instantly and I cannot attack him.

Compare with:

(B) When I am outside a bush, and the enemy champion is inside the bush, and he autoattacks me, he is revealed for the usual duration and I can attack him.

Situation (A) just doesn't feel right, considering most players are familiar with the mechanics of situation (B). Players expect someone autoattacking them from inside a bush to be continuously revealed (situation B), but the odd circumstance where I step out of the bush causes the person attacking me to disappear briefly (until his next autoattack).

My suggested solution would be for the "reveal" mechanic to be applied even in situations where it is moot. (i.e., we are both inside the same bush, and we can see each other anyway, so any "reveal" mechanic is moot) If the usual "reveal" mechanic was applied to the attacker in situation (A), he would still be revealed when I stepped out of the bush.
Agree with this. So many times a top lane duel will go down in the brush, If I try to run because their jungle is on the way its free damage for the enemy champ to stay in brush and AA/chase. I know he's in there I was just punching him in the face and the minion behavior is strange...

*minion sense tingling* DEFEND OUR CHAMPION!!!
Also a note on example B that many others have said. I get that minion aggro is important and is key to changing early trades into early kills. How the EFF do minions know I'm brawling in the bush if they are in the lane fighting the other minions? It doesn't make good sense. In the previous example the melee minions do some weird reset shuffle and casters run through front lines. Unpopular as it maybe I feel like there should be an indicator between minions will drop everything to attack enemy champs and minions will go about their business of dying to towers. If the brush was warded it would make sense but currently it does not.

Which now points to a new concern: minions reveal wards. If I Attack an enemy champ and the minions run to me or start shooting me inside the brush I now know it has a ward. If I trade in that brush I expect minion aggro on me, how far away you have to be to trade in a warded brush without pulling the wave back up? does anybody know for sure? A show of hands please for anybody that has have had a trade like this and you end up with 1-2 minions but not the whole wave.

Fog of war
Being destroyed over a wall by an enemy who is autoattack pew pewing reveals them. its called positioning and its what they do if they are good. Being destroyed over a wall by an enemy who is using spells...wonder where they are? IMO it should be illegal for invisible Veigar to combo me (to death) and never be revealed.

Zed
How ever you handle these cases of brush/fow I think it would be BS for his shadow to reveal him unless he lands a Q from it. While it does provide him a unique brush checking and escape mechanism you shouldn't be punished for wall hopping dragon and hightailing it back to base. I also don't think you should be punished for casting shadow/Q combo from one brush to the other in top/bot lane edge bushes unless you hit somebody. Revealing him for that would feel bad.


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Hexerin

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Recruiter

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
just use the oracle eye or some similar method, really simple and conveys the point appropriately, without crowding the screen at all


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Kr1sys

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vdragoon View Post
Well, you can use Eve's mechanic for being revealed. It's pretty simple and effective.

And please fix Janna's Howling Gale bug, where you can see it in the bush. No other spell does this.
You can see Shaco's Deceive and box placement in the fog of war.


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Pynque

Member

08-27-2013

Based off the comments I've read, as well as my own opinions for how to improve the game's bush mechanics, I think these points would enhance the play, without breaking it (I apologize for the incoming wall):

1. All No-Miss abilities where they home in on the target should be treated like an auto-attack (AA) and reveal the target because it follows the same principle of an AA.

2. If you AA/no-miss ability from in a bush, you are revealed for the same duration as when you AA a minion, even if you attack someone else in the bush and they leave which currently behaves weirdly.

3. Skill shots do NOT reveal the caster even if they hit, however, the "projectile" is revealed as soon as it enters the enemies' line of sight outside of the brush. This in its own way is enough of a "reveal" on the person who fired the projectile because if you know how it travels you know roughly where they were standing. This would allow for some counter play without unfairly punishing the bush dweller.

4. In the same vein but slightly different from true skill-shots are AOE abilities like Nunu's, Kennan's and Fiddlesticks' ultimates or Karthus' aura. These abilities are not true skill-shots, but at the same time are skill required shots (if that makes sense). These abilities should behave similarly to true skill-shots in that they area the effect is occurring in should be revealed if you can see the area of effect even if the caster is in a bush. But the caster itself shouldn't be automatically revealed. This would make it fair to the victims by allowing counterplay and would reduce the "noob-combo"-esque feel of certain abilities behavior from cover. Logically if you have a yeti causing a snowstorm in a large area, you won't NOT see the large snowstorm just because the yeti is sitting in a bush.

5. Make use of the Evelynn mechanic already in game where she notifies you if you can be seen <by something other than ward> for all brush/stealth encounters. This in turn will help newbies figure out the mechanics as well as allow veterans to more reliably follow the rules that govern the behavior.

These points would retain the current systems behavior, which is mostly good, without the overly frustrating buggy mechanics that make certain champions/situations frustrating/toxic to play against.


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Knückles

Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by starbringer View Post
however you change the brush to work, abilities like yi meditate, fiddle channeling his ult and vi charging her dash should never reveal them, even though vi and fiddle are taking "aggressive action."
Well it wouldn't be aggressive action until it's damaged someone right? So the channeling of anything wouldn't reveal unless the channel also damages while channeling, in which case it would be considered and AOE, ie Vi isn't hurting anyone until her Q is launched and she rams them and neither is Fiddle until teleports and his AOE becomes active.


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CW Forg1ven

Senior Member

08-27-2013

A super annoying bug that really hurts Evelynn:

If there is a green ward where Evelynn is, and she is next to a wall, and an enemy champion is over that wall-- they can see her. Even though there is no true sight, and the champion that is over the wall should not be able to use his/her truesight to be able to see her.


Kinda unfair, no?


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Kemherar

Member

08-27-2013

I think anything that go out of a bush should be visible (nunu's ult, Karthus' W, etc...), but not necesseraly grant vision over the champion. I men you may see the large icy circle form Nunu's ult but not Nunu himself. As skillshot are not guaranteed we cant penalize someone trying to poke for afar.
Any skill that is target base should make the champion visible.


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Balancer

Member

08-27-2013

here's one thing that always confused me, and im pretty sure it's not intended. so a lot of skillshots, if they hit something, there's absolutely no indication of it, which is 100% fine. but for some reason (sometimes), it seems like if there's someone in a bush, and you fire any negative effect that hits them, then they become targeted in the top left of your screen. i always feel like im cheating when this happens. not sure if it happens with every ability, but im 100% sure it does sometimes happen even on spells that are not supposed to reveal brush.