Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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SuperiorZephyr

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Lol if Nunu's ult is revealed prepare for the threads.


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TwoPacalypse

Senior Member

08-27-2013

You should take a look at vision in general!

There are a lot of times that i find myself in a situation where i've lost vision of an enemy champ when it does nto seem that i should have. This seems to happen alot in the bottom lane bushes.

Right up against the wall, ive been chasing people (from bottom blue side bush into bottom purp side bush) and even tho we are both in the same exact bush, i lose vision of them. This is strange, as the game seems to indicate that i have vision of the top section of the brush and the brush around me but not a very small section int he middle.

This happens most often when im running right up against the wall (its as if the game is saying "there is a tiny piece of wall sticking out right here that blocks your vision)


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Abaranth

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey Renzokuken,

I'm going to get a bit technical here. I'm not saying this is how it should work, but just how it currently works.

Basically the way vision works is each vision source is evaluated separately:
the sight you get that shows stealth does not 'reveal all stealth in this area' but requires the source of that stealth (e.g. your pink ward outside the brush, your support with oracles, etc.) sight actually see it. So even if your green ward can see inside the brush it doesn't "partner up" with the pink/oracles nearby to see inside it.

If you guys think this could be changed I'm definitely open to talk about it
so wait. Say I have Oracles and a green ward in a brush with a stealthed enemy twitch. If I'm outside and he is inside I can't see him at all? Like I would gave to face check him at 0 range to see him? Same with if you replace the green ward with a teammate? Cuz if that's how it works I don't see how this isint abused far more often.


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Kirielis

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

I would say - targeted skills to reveal player. Auto attacks (being targeted) reveal player. Skillshots show particle effects once the shot leaves the brush, but do not reveal.


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LxLegend

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I don't understand why the brush just doesn't follow the same rules has stealth. When you attack, use a skill, or a skill shot from stealth you give vision of yourself on the minimap.

Laying traps is an aggressive action so why can Teemo drop all the mushrooms he wants in the brush while being effectively invisible.

That being said I don't think if one person in the brush does something aggressive it should expose everyone in that brush. I believe it should only expose the one person. This would allow for baiting and other ambush setups.

I also think that if you attacked someone recently that person should keep vision on you for a few seconds if you run into the brush. The only thing more annoying than losing vision on your target when you are a step away from using your gap closer because they walked into the brush is Teemo.

One more thing I don't quite understand while talking about the subject of vision. Why do stealth traps that detonate when touched have no interaction with skill shots until revealed? Are the traps such as Shaco's boxes or Teemo's trollshroms in some kind of parallel universe until touched or revealed?

And before you ask no I don't have any Teemo horror stories, I mainly play assassins, mages, and ADC characters so I can kill regularly.


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angusm

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

Aggressive actions should reveal the player.
Being unable to react do to lack of information and feedback makes the player lose agency.
Losing player agency is unfun.

EDIT: For some champs, like Nunu, this may mean some tweaks or reworks are required, but if the only way those champs are effective is by operating in a way that the enemy is unaware of and unable to react to. Well then those champs probably have problems.


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Javvek

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I agree. Either any agressive action should reveal you OR no actions should reveal you. If it's the latter it ads a LOT of power to brush. Which would make face checking bushes far far more dangerous. Especially bush like top lane and bottom lane where there are two separate ones. I kinda like this danger. Puts more emphasis on warding those bush.


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GLaD0S

Senior Member

08-27-2013

a yakaru thread! WHATS UP YURARU?


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Uribo

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Member

08-27-2013

I can easily imagine a leaf particle effect that explodes out when someone gets revealed in bush. Couple with a possible 'leaf' over people's heads (in the same way Eve has an eye over her head) and that leaf not going red/yellow, but breaking apart, for a clear visual.

Couple that with more consistent rules (I was stunned the first time I saw that Nunu can ult without revealing himself) and then trust players to intuitively learn the rules/exception cases.

On pure theory level alone, I don't like the notion of people being revealed after skillshots hit. It feels too delayed. Reveal them on skillshot use - if they want to be discreet they can do it from edge of fog of war or around a corner.


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JohnsonAgent

Senior Member

08-27-2013

You know what fog of war bug I really hate? When the mid lane goes b in the fog of war, when they return to mid it always flashes the ****ing blue particles around them at the first instance that they leave the fog of war...it annoys me every time.