Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Equinox MKD

Senior Member

08-27-2013

imo tarics dazzle wont make any difference, i mean if he is revealed when he shoots it it means he stunned u anyway, so id doesnt matter if he is visible or not when he casts it


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EFG

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
The eve exclamation mark?


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Frenzied Ice

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

@Yakaru
If Cho Q's in a bush, the circle does not always appear nor does it reveal Cho.


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Natsume Takashi

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBlazer View Post
Another annoying/weird edge-case that causes some unintuitive results and, imho, should be fixed:

(A) When I am inside a bush, and the enemy champion is inside the same bush, we can see each other, he autoattacks me, and I step out of the bush a split second later, he disappears instantly and I cannot attack him.

Compare with:

(B) When I am outside a bush, and the enemy champion is inside the bush, and he autoattacks me, he is revealed for the usual duration and I can attack him.

Situation (A) just doesn't feel right, considering most players are familiar with the mechanics of situation (B). Players expect someone autoattacking them from inside a bush to be continuously revealed (situation B), but the odd circumstance where I step out of the bush causes the person attacking me to disappear briefly (until his next autoattack).

My suggested solution would be for the "reveal" mechanic to be applied even in situations where it is moot. (i.e., we are both inside the same bush, and we can see each other anyway, so any "reveal" mechanic is moot) If the usual "reveal" mechanic was applied to the attacker in situation (A), he would still be revealed when I stepped out of the bush.
I supposed you could apply the reveal mechanic to coincide with being "in combat" and have this reveal fade after leaving combat for a moment of time. I appreciate the use of brush for skilled players in weaving in and out landing autos and retrieving and the counterplay to that if the opposite laner so chooses is to ward that bush or occupy the bush him or herself. I do feel that that edge case is a bit clunky and strange because half of the time you stop mid auto as you are stutter stepping. If you apply the reveal mechanic in brush to be involved with being in combat (with some proximity to the champion in the brush of course) that may much easier allow you to code the interaction. Also I don't feel this "reveal" should apply after a champion is a certain distance from the other champion. Like a jayce shock blast or Nidalee spear hitting you even if she is in brush you shouldn't be aware of his position if he sends it from fog of war IMO. It's why fog of war is what it is.
TL;DR
So if you wanted to implement a combat related reveal mechanic I feel it should be distance limited so we don't get caught in awkward fights where one loses vision and stops attacking in near proximity in bushes.


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Sagee Prime

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Like phreak, I think you could just use the same eye's particle that other reveal abilities use like Nidalee and Cait traps.

As for Revealing from FoW and brush goes I think that if a champion is actively damaging or debuffing with a targeted or AOE skill they should be revealed. Skillshots on the other hand should probably remain stealthed while in FoW but revealed when out of Fow even when the champion is not in vision.

Having a skillshot reveal can really punish players with what would have otherwise been good positioning.

Edit: Just for clarification passive debuffs and damage or the ones that champions don't active;y impart on their enemies should not reveal nor be revealed to their enemies. Fiddle's passive for instance.


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TheCowness

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I like the idea of being "revealed" inside a brush only if you're in range of a champion/ward/tower/etc. It would make sense to me if an action like Nidalee chucking a spear were to stop the brush from shrouding her, but she isn't necessarily revealed from behind a wall or if she's outside of your vision range.


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PlatinumRooster

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I'm having a hard time explaining what could be wrong with brushes but I definitely feel there is something wrong with them which is why I'm glad to see this post. But when you look at champions such as Nidalee or Rengar, champions whose kit directly involves brush somehow(at least for now), I think their kits should have some type of niche considering they're both "High Mobility" and to a degree, "In-n-Out Assassin's". So when it comes to something like Nidalee's spear, I do believe that it should stay stealth until out of brushes; not revealing her position within the brush. However, there was the recent change/suggestion that her spear be visible just before it hits you giving you enough time to dodge if you have quick thinking. But then that kind of counteracts that change because that would involve the fog of war as well.

When it comes to AA's... This has always been a sketchy topic for me. I've honestly always had the closeted thought that basic attacks should keep the assailant hidden. Considering how often bushes are warded in lane, I especially think this should be true. Let's take Caitlyn for example. Slowest MS speed of all ADC's and slowest base AA(I believe). She also has a passive that almost no one ever utilize's or is incapable of utilizing. Not even professional players utilize her bush mechanics because it's just too troublesome. Being a slow ADC like herself, she's incredibly vulnerable. Even with traps and things like that, now that we're in the League of Gap closers, it's best if she just stays out of the bushes and sits in the middle of lane. Back near the end of Season 1, this is why you saw things like Caitlyn Mid. She was incredibly viable because her traps prevented pushes and prevented swift ganks. But now that she's pretty much been forced botlane or w/e carry lane she may be in, typically top or bot, if she enters those bushes and people have her position, she's incredibly vulnerable.

People may ask, "Well that's Caitlyn... what about other Ranged ADC's?". Let's take Vayne for example; some might consider her to be stronger if she was completely cloaked by the bush while AA'ing. Regardless of her kiting capabilities, she's more capable of being locked in because of that. Vayne is fast and can kite, however, she can get locked in easily overall meaning that she could duel properly in the bushes. Caitlyn can't kite, but she also can't get locked in meaning she'd be a terrible dueler in a bush. Caitlyn's whole idea is to snipe and pick off game(minions) from the safety of the brush. This would allow her to cave in and farm and you'd need to actively do something to prevent her from getting too beefy. IE: Wards. That kind of speaks for itself as well. This would constitute more ward purchases... even from the Ranged ADC's. I ALWAYS buy wards because I realize the power of the brush anyway.

However, to counter act this bush warfare, I would institute a mechanic such as the turret aggro notification. If you think about it, Vayne's bolts aren't too terribly noticeable. In light of that, with this implementation, if you were AA'd from a fogged area(This includes all AA proc abilities as well. Like Silver bolts, or TF's Pick a Card) where it be a blind bush or the blind side of the wall, you'd get a ping notification letting you know you're under attack and at that point, the only way to see your assailant is if you warded the brush, or went all in to the brush to get vision.

I'd like to note that only AA's should keep the enemy cloaked. I think abilities should always reveal the champion unless it's a champion that's catered around bush warfare such as Nidalee's spear or Rengar's Bola. I only brought up Caitlyn and bushes because of her passive, however, Caitlyn isn't a bush fighter. Or rather, she isn't a kiting champion. It's hard to explain. my apologies for the jumbled thoughts.


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legendarymuffin

Junior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey Renzokuken,

I'm going to get a bit technical here. I'm not saying this is how it should work, but just how it currently works.

Basically the way vision works is each vision source is evaluated separately:
the sight you get that shows stealth does not 'reveal all stealth in this area' but requires the source of that stealth (e.g. your pink ward outside the brush, your support with oracles, etc.) sight actually see it. So even if your green ward can see inside the brush it doesn't "partner up" with the pink/oracles nearby to see inside it.

If you guys think this could be changed I'm definitely open to talk about it
Correct me if I am wrong, but with eve it seems that detection does work this way. If they have a normal ward in the bush but they are standing close they can see you. I have never understood this when other stealth doesn't work that way.


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Kalookakoo

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Damage dealing abilities can reveal. But to have my stun that I use before I enter a tri bush to try and lose my pursuer only to reveal me anyway sounds absurd.


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Kr1sys

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I think the bugs need fixed, but the rules are generally fine right now...

Skillshots don't reveal
Targeted abilities should
Charging abilities shouldn't
AA's should.

Fix the bugs before you start changing the way champs interact with brush.