Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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ninbushido

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Please fix the bug where you have river bush warded at the corner to give slightly more vision onto Dragon, and then an enemy enters the bush...and mysteriously disappears inside that very bush...and you can't see him ever until he actually leaves. Makes it very hard to coordinate counterganks because you ping the bush like crazy and meanwhile your jungler's like "wut there's nobody there"


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Superbone1

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Senior Member

08-27-2013

What's more annoying for me is when I juke into a brush and people attack me even though they shouldn't have vision (and don't have wards in the brush). I've had people tell me that brush doesn't make me invisible right away, when I know that it should.


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MrSc0tty

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Targeted abilities (like autoattacks) that will land, should show the player casting them.

Non-targeted abilities should not-this is one of the major components of play-counterplay. You fire a skillshot, for instance a nidalee spear, and the other player can dodge it. In an open arena, the other player would dodge the nidalee skillshot every single time from a certain range. So Nid has an option to artificially reduce that range and the time of reaction by firing from a bush.

Same with nunu-his ultimate would be almost useless if he couldn't use it in surprising and unexpected ways, most importantly from a bush but also over walls, flashing in to use it, etc.

Targeted abililities are ensured to hit so they reveal as soon as they cast. There is no additional strategic element to casting a targeted ability from a bush, not revealing the champ would just be an added advantage.

I would agree to possibly revealing the source of some damage when the damage hits you (in the above examples, Nid's spear hitting you or a minion, or nunu's ult detonating on someone) but revealing on cast is a HUGE nerf to skillshot-reliant champs. Like, collosal, and something that will need to be compensated with by giving some other way to make skillshots possible to land, such as a universal projectile speed increase.

Which would just shear off another layer of play and counterplay from skillshots.


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Hawke Solaris

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Hi Yakaru! Nice to see a new (as in forum-posting) Riot around the forums


I'd like to give my thoughts on this discussion, hopefully to spur some ideas into the mix.


For what actions reveal you in the brush, I'm personally inclined to simplify the rules to this:

1. Auto-attacking any enemy target (minions or champions) will reveal an AOE around you inside the brush to enemy minions and enemy champions.
2. A spell cast will NOT reveal you in the brush unless rule 3 applies.
3. A "channeling" spell that causes detrimental effects to an enemy champion (see Nunu ult channel) will reveal you for as long as the channeling spell is affecting an enemy champion.

You mentioned Occam's Razor earlier and I agree completely. For something as potentially complex as what reveals you and what doesn't, the most simple way to have the system will be the best answer. My rules above could be simplified to 2- auto attacks reveal, spells do not. Or even 1- all damage-dealing actions reveal you inside the brush.
I'm more inclined to try and simplify the rules as much as possible but try and keep what we have today intact as much as possible so that players don't have to adapt as much as they potentially would have if the vision system made all spells impossible to cast from brush without being seen.


I foresee a problem however with adding a visual indicator that you are "revealed" inside a brush. Particularly for junglers ganking, if they walk into a warded brush, would the system you have in place for showing you are "revealed" also include vision granted by wards? Because if that's the case and a jungler walks in and is instantly "revealed" when he shouldn't be, that's a clear indication it's warded and he's been spotted. Whether or not this is a good change however is up for debate, but I personally consider it a problem that has to be discussed as I feel I don't have the authority to dictate if it's good or bad a change to have.
It may however have a bad impact on top level play since laners can hang around to bait the enemy jungler into wasting his time, which they wouldn't be able to do if the jungler knew full well the laner could see him.


-----

On an off-topic comment, I highly approve of your avatar! Do you have a Riot email I could send messages to to talk about Ahri? I have some thoughts on her I want to share and hear from you about

Nice topic of discussion by the way!


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3mptylord

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I think that any damaging action should reveal you. This solves Nunu's issue, as it would only reveal him after he deals damage (and it does, doesn't it?). I don't think there are enough damageless abilities that would abuse this - if Elise Cocoon's you, she's probably about to jump out and you're stunned anyway.

Can you also cleanup the consistency on auto-targeted abilities hitting stealth, brush and fog enemies? Ahri's Fox-Fire can only hit enemies she can see; whereas Heimerdinger's Rockets can hit stealth, brush and fog enemies; Sona can hit into a brush but not hit someone who is stealth. Master Yi cannot hit things he cannot see (which is really frustrating when the jungle camp doesn't appear instantly when you walk around the corner).

Oh, and clean up reveal effects. Corki's "reveal" doesn't show stealth, whereas Lulu's does. Use "true sight" or "sight" whenever appropriate; and also clean up the icon that appears above people's heads.

I honestly think that screen borders could be used without overly cluttering the screen. A slight indication that you are hidden within a brush; but also one for "undead" champions (like Karthus, so they definitively know they're fake-dead) and maybe even one of Zilean's ultimate (golden cogs or something).


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hotfire

Senior Member

08-27-2013

IMO, skillshots should never reveal you from a bush.


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Sim Sou Eu

Member

08-27-2013

I honestly don't think a skill shot should reveal you ever, since you may or not hit it, and it only depends on the target's decisions. However, the spell itself should be visible right when it leaves the bush/fog of war. Basicly, if you have vision on an area, you should have vision of every spell that is flying over there.

I also don't like how aoe spells like Morgana's Tormented Soil, Lux's Lucent Singularity, Cassiopeia's Miasma, Malzahar's Null Zone, etc. are hidden in the bush or not based on whether the center of the spell is inside the bush or not.

Teemo's mushrooms should also show the explosion particle when you step on them inside a bush.


So, here are my suggestions of what should be revealed or not:

- Targetted spells (Annie's Desintegrate, Fiddlesticks' Drain, Syndra's Unleashed Power, etc.) and basic attacks should always reveal the champion that casts the ability.

- Skill shots (Nidalee's Javelin Toss, all of Ezreal's spells, Mundo's Infected Cleaver, Zyra's Grasping Roots, etc.) should be revealed right as they leave bushes/fog of war, but not reveal the champion who cast them. Auto-lock skills (Sona's Hymn of Valor, Ahri's Foxfire, etc.) should count as skill shots, since you can't really chose the target.

- Ground-targetted aoe spells (Morgana's Tormented Soil, Lux's Lucent Singularity, Cassiopeia's Miasma, Malzahar's Null Zone, etc.) should show their particles at all times, but not reveal the champion who cast them. This only applies if you have vision over the surrounding area of the spell.

- Channeled aoe spells (Nunu's Absolute Zero, Katarina's Death Lotus, Miss Fortune's Bullet Time, etc.) should show their particles at all time, but not reveal the champion who is casting them. This only applies if you have vision over the surrounding area of the spell. Exception: Galio's Idol of Durant, for obvious reasons.

- Defensive spells and buffing abilities (Janna's Eye of the Storm, Galio's Bulwark, Teemo's Move Quick, etc.) should never show any particle or reveal their caster while in the bush/fog of war.

TL;DR: Basicly what I suggest is a "fragmented" particle display where you only see the particle of a non-targetted offensive spell if you have vision of the area where the spell is flying over at the moment. For aoe abilities you would see the area of the spell you have vision over and not see the area you don't have vision over, creating a "fragmented vision" effect. This would solve problems of particles revealing the position of an enemy in the fog of war, but would also show you every particle as long as you have vision over an area.


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EzChzy

Member

08-27-2013

It is kind of strange how you can be pixels away from an enemy and not be able to see them in brush.

Not sure if it would change gameplay so much its not viable, but why not make it so that if an enemy is inside brush cover then there would be a certain range that you would detect them? Possibly even within the same brush that view distance could apply, such as a longer patch of foliage. When you get within that distance hidden enemies would be revealed as normal, able to be attacked, etc. Enemies firing ranged attacks/abilities, damaging or whatever is decided, may be revealed even outside of the brush cover range as vision is normally.

This way brush would still provide a tactical advantage without having such odd vision and gameplay mechanics, I mean if someone right next to you is jabbing a sword in your face you should be able to see them and attack back. It also may open up the possibility of brush cover view range enhancing items/runes/other stuffs or the view distance could just be a set number.

Sorry if anyone else suggested this I only skimmed through Yakaru's posts.


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Cyraknoss

Senior Member

08-27-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phreak View Post
I'd actually really like that change. Some sort of, "Recently attacked you from brush, is revealed while within that brush."

I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.
I actually think the "You're revealed" eyeball particle would be misleading. For example if it popped while against nidalee it could result in low hp people mistakenly burning barrier thinking they'd stepped on a trap, rather than their attack move click kiting being the reason the particle appeared.

I think the best solution for an obvious reveal in the bushes is to remove the faded effect you get from being in a bush. Currently your character gains a faded semi-transparent look when in a bush and it does not disappear when you're revealed by AAing something outside the bush. Simply removing this effect when you've revealed yourself would be a very effective means of communicating that you're not hidden right now. The effect is already obvious enough that when someone tries to hide in a bush they can tell if they're in or out at a glance, so the sudden change to your character while you're in the middle of the bush should be plenty to make it obvious you've revealed yourself.


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muggy8

Senior Member

08-27-2013

I think that it should only reveal the attacker when they are within a certain range (i'd say 650 range) cuz globals exist (ezreal, ashe) and only for skillshots. any auto attack or targeted ability always reveals you