Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Häßlich

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Making it so enemies need vision over Shaco to see his smoke would be a huge quality of life change for him. It's extremely counter-intuitive as it is, and it also contributes to why so many people think he's a bad champ (despite the fact that he's really strong in the right hands).


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SCJ

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

I have a question with regards to true sight radius and brush. Is there a design reason that a ward is only revealed when the carrier of true sight is in the same brush? For example, assume that the pink ward in the attached picture is yours and the green ward is the enemy's. Why is it that even if you were to walk into the brush with the enemy ward, that you won't be able to see it? In other words, why is true sight limited to the vision of the source instead of total vision granted, even from other sources?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg Ward.jpg (264.6 KB, 19 views)

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FredYeye

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Speaking of vision, spectator vision is definitely weird. More often than not, you'll see players shoot invisible jungle monsters in the LCS, especially the buff monsters. Every now and then, even the baron goes invisible!


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Toru Itai

Senior Member

08-26-2013

my only input will be.. more bushes please.


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Kotolok

Senior Member

08-26-2013

For a suggestion on visually transmitting brush reveal, why not remove brush/champion transparency while revealed?


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1davidj

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey Renzokuken,

I'm going to get a bit technical here. I'm not saying this is how it should work, but just how it currently works.

Basically the way vision works is each vision source is evaluated separately:
the sight you get that shows stealth does not 'reveal all stealth in this area' but requires the source of that stealth (e.g. your pink ward outside the brush, your support with oracles, etc.) sight actually see it. So even if your green ward can see inside the brush it doesn't "partner up" with the pink/oracles nearby to see inside it.

If you guys think this could be changed I'm definitely open to talk about it
i think it's really frustrating when teemo has a shroom in a small brush like near drag/baron, and there's no way for you to clear it with your oracles because if you walk into the bush to get sight of it, you're close enough for it to explode.


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C Rune

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru
Squippit had the thoughts of revealing when a skill shot 'lands'
I can't say for much about revealing a champion for landing a skillshot as I think that is fair (which I am sure most, if not everyone else, think the otherwise) as poke-and-run is an important part in the game (sieging and ambushing) and some champions (e.g: nidalee, jayce, blitzcrank, etc.) heavily relies on that to create plays. Plus, it would be strange if landing a skillshot reveals while missing a skillshot doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru
Nunu's ult is the most obvious example of a spell which has unintuitive vision rules
As for Nunu and those with similar behaviour (Galio anyone?), I think it is wise to have AoE ABILITIES to be revealed entirely if a part of the AoE is visible or in effect (I repeat, just the ability)(e.g: if MF channels her spamming time and part of it was seen, the entire flying bullet animation will be revealed but MF herself isn't revealed. Similar to Nunu, even if he is in an unwarded bush, if an enemy player is within the aoe, the entire freezing animation is revealed to everyone).

what do you guys think? I am prepared on answering questions related to the second quote.


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Zwizzy

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hi everyone,

I've been quiet for a while so for those of you who who don't know me I'm Yakaru and I'm one of the Senior Gameplay Engineers. I'm pretty well known as a hardcore tabletop gamer and for my Ninja 300 motorcycle.

I've been looking at fog of war and brush and I've noticed a lot of things that are strange, which made me realize the rules for brush/fog aren't as clean and consistent as they could be. If you have a few minutes would you mind sharing your thoughts with me?

Here's some facts:
* Autoattacks will always reveal you through brush
* Nunu's ultimate (Absolute Zero) doesn't reveal him in brush while he's charging
* Blitzcrank Rocket Grabs will show you his fist but not Blitzcrank himself
* Nidalee throwing her spears (Q) also doesn't reveal her
* Taric's Dazzle does reveal him
* Nunu's Iceball will reveal him

I can get into the details of why it's like this, but the more important question is how SHOULD it work and why?

My gut instincts are that any 'aggressive' action should probably reveal you -- if a spell is dealing damage, slows, roots, or stuns, for example, it should reveal the caster. This is an easy to understand rule and is very easy to understand and explain to new players, but I'm not sure about this, what do you guys think?

Thanks much!
~Yakaru
I disagree, i think no action should reveal u but you should be able to tell where the attack came from. It would make bushes more valuable. Its also simple and concise. The rule would be easy to follow even for noobs.


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Baxtasan

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I think if you are going to keep Nid being able to throw spears from brush with no indication, you should probably bring Shacos abilities in line with that also. Currently, his JITBs and deceive both have a puff of smoke indicator.


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GRIMSVOLT

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

I have a pretty common problem with brush. When I am supporting and I am at the edge of a brush and an enemy walks into the other edge of the brush, they disappear from sight. We are in the same brush, why can't I see them?