Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

First Riot Post
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xJoushi

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I'm personally in favor of nothing you do revealing you while in the brush, because it's self-consistent, and provides more depth to the game than other ideas without causing an increase in the burden of knowledge to the playerbase. "Does this skill reveal me? Why do skills not reveal but auto attacks do?"

I do think that having the animations of affects (eg: the slow ice on the ground visible when Nunu is ulting) being visible should also be consistent and universal.

Lastly, I think this will likely reduce the burden of warding on supports by making wards more necessary to the game and essentially forcing everyone to buy them in all positions.


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Häßlich

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Maybe something obvious here, but a sparkle effect around your character and your character actually being brighter (as if moused over, for example) for the duration would work. It's really irritating to not know if you are revealing yourself.

The other huge issue I have with the way vision currently works is about revealing hidden objects or stealth.

When I have oracles, and a green ward in a bush, but I'm not in the bush, it's really awful that I have to actually go into the bush to see if there's a ward in it. Just having vision in the bush via my ward should be enough. Same with greens and pinks interaction. Try explaining this one to a new player and see how long it takes them to know what you mean. If all you needed was vision in the brush and true sight, that would be very simple and clear to anyone.


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Fayori

Recruiter

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Why not just lose the transparency that you gain when you're stealthed/in a brush? That makes it clear that your champion is visible since they return to the normal "visible" state, and doesn't crowd the screen with other effects that are already used elsewhere.


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Häßlich

Senior Member

08-26-2013

That's similar to my idea, Fayori, but I like yours better. It's consistent with known game mechanics and UI interaction.


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Slayer12rt

Member

08-26-2013

in my opinion i think skill shots should not reveal the champ but, targetable's and auto attacks should. (nunu's ult counting as a skill shot since you do not target the champ)
and all the other things you are talking about are beyond me.


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FIedermaus

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Just make heroes non-transparent when they're revealed.


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Nuclear Dragon

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Basically the way vision works is each vision source is evaluated separately:
the sight you get that shows stealth does not 'reveal all stealth in this area' but requires the source of that stealth (e.g. your pink ward outside the brush, your support with oracles, etc.) sight actually see it. So even if your green ward can see inside the brush it doesn't "partner up" with the pink/oracles nearby to see inside it.

If you guys think this could be changed I'm definitely open to talk about it
I am not happy with the way it works on live. It's not intuitive. I would expect, and DID expect when I was newer to the game, that a pink placed outside of a bush would be able to detect wards inside said bush if I was able to walk into the bush.

In regards to vision and when they reveal you, I believe I have an acceptable solution. I believe that ALL target-able actions (basic attacks and single-target spells which require a target) should reveal the caster/attacker. However, this still leaves the question of how to deal with Nunu ults, for example. My solution is to show all offensive particle effects, targeted or not. Following this paradigm, there is little to no grey area such as a Teemo shroom revealing Teemo half the map away (or even closeby). All single-target abilities capable of being used on enemies have relatively close range. I see the vision as a sort of punishment for their consistency. This also avoids the whole "purposely jump in the way of the Nid spear to reveal the Nid" scenario.

What do you think? I'm curious to know if you find any flaw with my suggestion.


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VayneBug

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Actually, I dunno why we cannot see ground-targeted abilities(nunu's ulti and karthus's e) out of brush. When they use those skills, even though they are in brush, those skills are not in brush.


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Chief Rollie

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I feel like what should happen in relation to bushes affecting vision is as follows. Reasoning corresponds with the number.

1. Targeted spells always reveal caster.

2. Skill shots should remove the bush's affect on the enemy's vision

3. Grant vision of abilities when they are in what your team can see.

4. Make being in a bush a hidden status affect.

Reasons:

1. Targeted spells are always within vision radius of their target and it allows for counterplay.

2. If someone is inside your range of vision when they use a skill shot their protection by being in the bush should be removed. They lost their element of surprise and should now give vision for a second or so. This does not affect champions who use their abilities outside the enemy's vision range or vision blocked by terrain.

3. If a skill shot travels through a bush you don't have vision of you should lose vision of it. You could see it as soon as it came into your normal vision but you shouldn't be able to see it going through an unwarded bush. Same goes for the opposite, if a skill shot starts in a bush you should be able to see it as soon as it leaves the bush but not before.

4. Making the bush a hidden status affect would allow for easy programming to accomplish a few things
a. The buff could work where any action besides moving would remove the buff for about a second.
b. The hidden buff wouldn't directly reveal vision of the target, it would only remove the bush buff therefore allowing normal vision to see them briefly.
c. Perhaps it could be applied to abilities which would give everything the ability to be revealed under the right circumstances.


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CombatCube

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I believe Fog of War should serve the same purpose as the reverse of a playing card - you know that it exists and that there's useful information within, but it's not readily available to you. Fog of War gets removed with vision-granting abilities (or if you walk in), but the hidden information can be revealed when you interact with something within the Fog of War.

"Interaction" and "information" are general. If you throw a Nidalee spear into FoW (interaction), you may hear a "chunk" (information). If something attacks you from inside FoW (interaction), the skillshot is shown or the attacker is revealed (information).

If an enemy attack originates from outside the Fog of War, it should be shown to you no matter what. The uncertainty arises when the attack originates from inside the Fog of War. If the enemy Nidalee throws a spear from inside Fog of War to outside Fog of War, you should be able to see its entire trajectory. However, if she throws it from inside Fog of War to another area inside Fog of War, you should not be able to see it at all.

Most abilities follow this pattern. However, some abilities don't quite work like that. For example, I think Shaco's Deceive smoke is always shown to the enemy anywhere on the map, regardless of where he's going or whether the enemy has vision of it (I think Flash has a similar behavior, too). Let's say your team doesn't have vision of Dragon but you happen to be looking at the Fog of War there. If you see a puff of smoke, you'll know Shaco's there, despite him not interacting with anything outside the Fog of War.

I believe this behavior defeats the purpose of Fog of War. Fog of War should inform players that no useful information can be determined from looking at that area of the map, unless you get vision of it. This behavior rewards players for looking there anyway. It's analogous to looking at a face-down card for a mark. I think Deceive smoke should be shown if Shaco casts it to an area that you have vision of.

(I made a similar post a few months ago that elaborates a bit.)

Note: A counterargument arises when the interaction is near an area you have vision of. If Shaco walks into a brush and Deceives into Fog of War or anyone walks into a Brush and Flashes into Fog of War, technically the interaction is inside-FoW to inside-FoW so the smoke wouldn't be shown, but perhaps you should see the animation anyway. Perhaps there should be (or already are) "half Fog of War" areas consisting of Fog of War areas that touch areas you have vision of, which do reveal inside-FoW to inside-FoW inteactions.