Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Mattarias

Senior Member

08-26-2013

The bottom river bush has a weird thing about it that I noticed has only been happening recently- If you put a pink (for example) in about the very bottom of it, and there is something it can reveal around the very tiny bend in the bush, it won't.

It's been really throwing off my ward game.


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Rauron

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by emTmyclipin2u View Post
This reminds me of something I don't really think is fair in vision. When you autoattack in brush, it doesn't just reveal you, it reveals the area around you too. This means if I'm doing brush play as a support (autoattacking and hiding in brush to break minion aggro) and my carry steps into the brush and gets a cs, he reveals me too. This ruins a lot of plays in ganks, especially on twisted treeline, and punishes me for something I didn't do.
Goodness gracious, this, so much. I absolutely hate supporting an ADC that doesn't understand how much e hurts our lane by attacking without thinking, which applies to pushing AND to bush control.


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duniceline

Junior Member

08-26-2013

This is how I understand moves revealing the user works:

If it is targeted (i.e. autoattacks, Nunu e, Taric stun etc.) it reveals the user.

If it is not targeted it does not.

Skill-shots are revealed but the user is not.

AoEs are revealed unless centred on the user (presumably so that you can't track a singed that is in fog by following his poison, and similar cases).


Personally I think that AoEs that are in vision should always be revealed (i.e. Nunu ulti, singed poison trail, etc.) in the same way that skill-shots such as Nid spears are. Other than that I feel like the vision system is balanced (excepting maybe the whole 'if you are both in the bush and one uses a targeted move on the other it does nothing to vision' that results in vision being lost if the targeted player leaves the bush).

Basically I think the rules should work more like this:

If it is targeted (including auto attacks) it reveals.

If it is not targeted (i.e. skillshot or AoE) it is visible as long as you have vision on it but does not reveal.

Skillshots are revealed if traveling towards you even if they are in fog (this was added in a recent patch).


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Zastie

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Use the eye that is used for Eve when she's stealthed and being seen by someone close.


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metalaug

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Nunu ult should not reveal him. It's the most fun (and reliable) way of using it.


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kaoao

Junior Member

08-26-2013

I have an idea! What if entering a bush makes it rustle?


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ESVDiamond

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Xelnath has confirmed this to be a bug to me; I'm going to investigate it and see if this can be fixed
I saw this and thought of something that might be worth checking out about vision and it's bugs. I am a pretty devote Diana player, but she has a weird thing with stealth and her Crescent Strike/Lunar Rush. If you Crescent Strike someone, Lunar Rush, and they stealth while you are in air, the moonlight stack will not be consumed and your ult will go on cooldown (the enemy will still take damage). I have noticed this mostly vs Akali and Twilight Shroud, but seems most stealths do this.

I know this is sort of random but you mentioned you were looking into this type of stuff, so thought it might help !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
How about an eye that opens/closes when you are in a bush? Think like every stealth game ever. Could be small enough not to clutter (but still noticeable). Would be very intuitive to anyone that has played any game with a stealth element, and is still simple enough for anyone of any language to get I think.


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Shinomi

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rauron View Post
Goodness gracious, this, so much. I absolutely hate supporting an ADC that doesn't understand how much e hurts our lane by attacking without thinking, which applies to pushing AND to bush control.
That's just something that I feel should be fixed by riot releasing something on how bushes work after they fix some of these bugs and possibly make changes...If you're standing right on top of the ADC you shouldn't be effectively "stealthed" to me because according to what I know about the game so far when I have vision I have vision, there shouldn't really be selective vision of champs. It's always bugged me when the game gives off the illusion that you have vision somewhere and then someone just pops up and they're not someone with stealth.


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Dragoonix

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I agree the vision issue needs to be sorted. Your suggestion of aggression revealing is solid, but why should it stop there? What if Taric heals his adc while standing in the bush, why wouldn't this reveal him? Perhaps more along the lines of 'affecting an area or unit outside of the brush' reveals? This to me includes a skill shot leaving the brush, even one that misses. The invisible skill shots definitely need to go too.

Phreak's suggestion of the 'revealed' icon shouldn't be used as that icon indicates you are universally revealed which I don't think should be the case with a brush attack, firing a skill shot out of a brush should only reveal you if someone is in range to see where you fired from.

Lastly a quick comment about lane mechanics, specifically, minion agro. Abilities get off scott free, but you auto attacked someone? all of a sudden the minions are pissed. Perhaps this is done for balance, but as a bright someone who plays by feel, I had no grasp of this rule till I read it somewhere, probably a good year into my League. The unfortunate thing here I think is that changing this would require MASSIVE adjustments by the player base. Season 4 anyone?


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messypuddle

Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
There is a lot of talk about using various eyes to indicate whether or not a champ is seen while in a bush. I think that would likely work fine but I'm going to go the other direction.

When you are outside the bush the bush looks solid, you can't see through it.
When you step in the bush becomes a bit translucent. You can see the champ but with a bush pattern overlay
Why not have it so that when a champ is revealed to the enemy the bush pattern is removed from over the champion and a small (super small) area around them. The champ will clearly be more visible than normal and you don't need to worry about new animations or icons overlapping or blocking the view.