Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

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Terenston

Senior Member

08-26-2013

I would like to input here that if Nid will be still be able to throw spears unseen, Nunu should be able to ult unseen. Thats something I find to be very "Nunu" in terms of his gameplay, and I feel it would detract from him if removed :c


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anhed0nic

Junior Member

08-26-2013

I'm going to quickly drop in to say that it would make a lot of sense of targeted abilities revealed you, whereas untargeted abilities don't. This would be consistent with autoattacks. I think the particle but not the champion should show for skill shots. And as far as an indicator, it would make sense to have the nidalee/caitlyn one but I think having a consistent standard without the particle would be sufficient. Out of curiousity, what is the duration you are revealed for after an auto?

Just my opinion, I think its unintuitive that if you (or a green ward) are in a bush, and a pink ward is next to it, stealthed targets aren't revealed. At first glance it would seem that if you have vision, and its within range of the pink, you should have vision of stealth. But that's just my opinion. Glad you're looking into this stuff


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Finch Toast

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey Renzokuken,

I'm going to get a bit technical here. I'm not saying this is how it should work, but just how it currently works.

Basically the way vision works is each vision source is evaluated separately:
the sight you get that shows stealth does not 'reveal all stealth in this area' but requires the source of that stealth (e.g. your pink ward outside the brush, your support with oracles, etc.) sight actually see it. So even if your green ward can see inside the brush it doesn't "partner up" with the pink/oracles nearby to see inside it.

If you guys think this could be changed I'm definitely open to talk about it
I like this concept however this would be a buff to oracles maybe to compensate for this losing it upon death may need to be reintroduced.


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Khyphenris

Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pryotra View Post
When Shaco goes AP, the old bush 'o boxes tactic should only reveal the boxes while they are firing, regardless of sight in the bush. If I'm right, currently they are only revealed while there is vision in the bushes, whether or not they are firing only influences what kind of vision. Also, a lesser known fact is that when you place a ward in said nest, the ward will tank all the shot of the boxes till it stealths, then the boxes die. The ward doesn't count damage from the boxes, so this is a 75g method of DESTROYING AP shaco. Less if you are someone with a Sightstone.
Off topic but I can see how that poses another problem for Shaco. However, if you really believe that destroys Shaco then I suggest you play him more because boxes while they are core, stacking them is not his core play style past lvl 5.


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Shinomi

Senior Member

08-26-2013

One of the things that's bugged me the most with bushes is how they reveal...The confusion in dropping a trap or a such in a bush and it giving a 'light up' particle on the whole bush but in places (such as bot bush) if you stand in the very very back and the trap is in the front you don't see them even though it seems like you would. Also when someone AA's and it reveals them but not the teammate standing directly on top of them.

I feel like their is a lot that needs to be cleaned up with bush vision, I've had cases where someone walking out of a bush during certain spells or auto attacks (even when you're chasing them OUT of the bush and should have vision the entire team) cause champs to disappear for a split second like they exited the bush through the void or something.


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Shinomi

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finch Toast View Post
I like this concept however this would be a buff to oracles maybe to compensate for this losing it upon death may need to be reintroduced.
Eh, I think it's counter intuitive to be able to see a bush and yet not be able to reveal what's in it when you have oracles.

I also had put out a post a while ago mentioning, that I think oracles should be given a loss on death similar to stacks in that you'd loose a minute or so on death (possibly compensating for death timers or not aka: whether you'd want to give oracles more or less of a loss late game 50 seconds death + 1 minute off oracles or 50 seconds death 10 seconds off oracles)


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Partholonian

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryptomine View Post
-Skill shots and AoE abilities that are in brush are visible the moment they are cast, but they do not reveal the user.

This way you'll know what the ability is used same as out of brush, but you won't be able to directly see the champion who casted it. i.e. Nunu ult in brush, gigantic snowstorm AoE becomes visible to all players, but Nunu himself remains hidden unless enemy team has vision on him in brush. Nid throws spear, enemies are able to instantly see the spear fly but do not have vision of Nidalee unless they have vision on her in brush.

I think that would work out well.
I like this idea. You know where you have to run away from, or if you have a skillshot you can chuck it at the center of the circle, but you still don't have vision of Nunu for targeted abilities or autoattacks. This means that Nunu is somewhat countered by skillshot CC that interrupts, but there isn't much of that (offhand I can only think of Cho'Gath and Nami, and Nami's is so slow you'd probably be better off running), so it's OK for him to have it as a counter/weakness.

I also think that some objects should be unhideable by brush, such as Janna's tornadoes, Viktor's gravity trap and chaos storm, Nami's wave, Anivia's wall, and Trundle's pillar. (Although for some of those, it's doubtful whether you could find a big enough bush in the first place.) The caster shouldn't be revealed, but the object itself should be, even if it is in brush. A tornado hiding in the grass makes even less sense than a flaming grizzly bear, a flamethrower-wielding mecha, or whatever the heck Cho'Gath is hiding in the grass.

All projectiles should be unhideable by brush as soon as they are cast; the ones that can go through/over walls could still cause a "spear from nowhere" problem though. (This post is long enough without considering walls, so I'll stick to discussing brush.) But I think an unhideability flag might help clean up some interactions.

Ground effects that can affect enemies in the area (Nasus, Morgana, Veigar, etc.) should also always have the *effect* be visible, regardless of brush. I think it might be fair to allow LeBlanc's return rune to be hidden when she casts W from brush, since it can't affect anyone else. In Vlad's case the effect *is* the caster, so he should be "visible" for the full duration... for all the good it's going to do.

Abilities that target the ground should IMO never fully reveal the user, even when they damage an enemy; for some, like Viktor's death ray, you'll have a pretty good idea based on seeing the spell itself, but that would only allow you to chuck "blind" skillshots rather than using targeted abilities or attacks. Nasus, Morgana and Veigar's ground AOEs (for example) would give you no clue other than "somewhere within casting range", and for projectiles that target the ground (e.g. Gragas, Ziggs) you have to back-trace the trajectory yourself.

On the other hand, I think abilities that emanate directly from the user (either in a cone, like Shyvana's breath in ult form or Cho'Gath's scream, or in a circle, like Riven's stun and Leona's Eclipse) should reveal on hit -- this includes continuous damage auras like Mundo and Shyvana, and should probably also include the continuous slow aura of Lulu's ult (although it should reveal the person it is on, rather than Lulu).

Summons (Yorick, Malzahar, etc.) should be revealed themselves when they exit brush, but should not reveal their caster; IMO Ahri's foxfire and ult should be treated as short-lived summons for this purpose, because they're uncontrolled and pick their own targets. (Seeing where those fires came out of the brush will give you a general idea of Ahri's position, but not an exact target.) Traps are ground-targeted *and* summons, so they shouldn't reveal either on cast or on hit. (Tibbers should reveal himself when he hits or when his aura deals damage, but not reveal Annie.)

Self-buffs should only reveal if they come with an aura that is currently affecting an enemy (Mundo, Nasus, Renekton), and abilities cast on friendly targets should never reveal the caster, even if the target is visible.

I'm inclined to say that bouncing abilities should only reveal you to the original target, and beyond that they have to see the spell effect and guess from there, so that e.g. Kat's bouncing blade targeting a jungle monster and bouncing to enemy minions/champions wouldn't reveal her to the enemy team, but vice versa would; applying this to Nami's W would mean she is revealed if the enemy is the primary target, but if a friendly is the primary target the enemy can only see the spell effect and guess from there, and doesn't get to see Nami's exact position. There may be an argument for having them reveal you to all targets hit, though.

All this means that some champions will get more benefit from brush than others, but IMO that's fine as long as it doesn't make them OP overall; it's just part of their individual playstyle, strengths and weaknesses.


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Khyphenris

Member

08-26-2013

Too lazy to read the entire thread but there is also the problem of brush with invisible spots if you ward them certain ways. For instance if you put a ward in the river bush at top or bot you can walk the the very corner part of the edge next the the wall closest to lane as possible without leaving said bush and you will be in fog of war. Effectively it forces you to ward it twice if you really want to know if someone isn't abusing that annoyance. (I see Rengar mains do this a lot.. stealth into the bush and sit there until you get close enough to jump on.. never even see them even with a pink if they came through lane and got in that corner)


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Sweet Mint

Junior Member

08-26-2013

Taking any action while inside a bush should make you "pop out" and show you normally to yourself and any other units. Players, lane minions, everything.
The same should happen for taunted units (including Charm).

No need for special highlights.
Translucent = Invisible to units outside the brush. Not Translucent = Visible.

Somewhat related, please fix Spirit Rush not being able to properly pick targets in some bushes.


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Finch Toast

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Khyphenris View Post
Too lazy to read the entire thread but there is also the problem of brush with invisible spots if you ward them certain ways. For instance if you put a ward in the river bush at top or bot you can walk the the very corner part of the edge next the the wall closest to lane as possible without leaving said bush and you will be in fog of war. Effectively it forces you to ward it twice if you really want to know if someone isn't abusing that annoyance. (I see Rengar mains do this a lot.. stealth into the bush and sit there until you get close enough to jump on.. never even see them even with a pink if they came through lane and got in that corner)
I've had this happen to me with a rammus jungler abusing this bot lane.