Do you see what I see? (Brush & Fog of War Discussion)

First Riot Post
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Chocmerc

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Honestly I feel that auto attacks and lock on abilities should always reveal you, but a skillshot/GTAE should not. Regarding PBAE skills, I can see good reason for both sides, but they should probably reveal as well.
I feel this way because lock on abilities tend not to miss, and if your nocturne or sivir, you'll want the opportunity to block those. As far as skillshots go, they can be frustrating to be hit by, but for the most part you aren't going to be surprised by a skillshot if your laning against a skillshot champ who just ducked into a bush... whereas say a jungler with a skillshot comes to gank you, they need the element of surprise on their side.

One last thing, I see people trying to make alot of exceptions to the rule, like how nidalee should have stealth for her spears. While I agree with this, I feel that singling her out to be an exception to a rule (or singling out a few select champions for that matter) is unfair and adds a variable that will act as a knowledge barrier for new players. Using the method outlined above, she can keep her brush spears (which she really does need, it would be rather ridiculous to have her spear tosses reveal her) and not be a cheap champ. Also nunu's ult -> bush interaction is kind of a nice fun thing that people tend to laugh or be amused by, both the nunu and the enemies hit by it, so imo it should stay :3

Thats my 2 cents on that
Regards,
Chocmerc


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Arance

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Sure, that'd be nice. And the way to do it is easy, simply make the character appear at full opacity for the duration. Just like the transparency effect signals to players that you are covered by the brush, taking that away and showing you as opaque makes it pretty clear the brush isn't covering you at that moment.


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Failbot Deploy

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
A simple ! overhead would be awesome

It would be a silly homage to MGS, but I don't know if you'd be able to do it (stupid legal issues)


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Etheric42

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Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
Eye of sauron? Kind of like the anti-oracles?


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Phreak

Shoutcaster

08-26-2013
15 of 23 Riot Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
I'm actually quite familiar with the issue you describe as I touched that part of the game just recently and in fact caused the behavior change you request. We changed it back (my current changes are to fix bugs, not change behavior), but this would be very doable if everyone agrees this is preferable
I'd actually really like that change. Some sort of, "Recently attacked you from brush, is revealed while within that brush."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
I think the current global "you're revealed right now" particle (Nidalee, Caitlyn, Kog'Maw) is okay. It's not used so often that it would overlap itself much, but the particle is pretty intuitive, especially since it is used in other parts of the game.


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SSj Heimerdinger

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

Edit: And freak above me just addressed this :3
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but make it so there is an eye above you like eve when you are in the bush, if seen the eye opens up, if not it is closed. HOWEVER, this eye will only work based off if you are intended to be revealed, not if there is a ward in the bush or not. Meaning the eye wouldn't be abused as a ward finder.

Also make it so minions still ignore champions in bushes even if it's warded, minions tend to reveal wards when the wave is clear.


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Sancitu

Member

08-26-2013

Personal thought,

I think any non self cast spell for the most part should reveal you.
And any aggressive action does reveal YOU specifically, (not the area, just you)

IE:
ahri foxfire doesnt reveal her until it actually fires off at someone
swain R toggle doesnt reveal, but if any birds attack from it he is.
ahris q would reveal her because hit or not, its an aggressive non stealthy action.
Mundo's AD boost wouldnt, but a cleaver would.
Sions shield and ult wouldnt, but stun would.
Anivia wall shouldnt, because its just a cast.

Might help people learn to use wards. just IMO

Nunu seems like a special case because its a huge part of his damage/surprise, but it seems kinda stupid to not be able to see the entire circle when he's in like...a tiny side brush. The whole circle is magic, should be noticeable. I also find it very not fun/cheap to be able to stealth cast a 1000 base damage spell or w/e it is.


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imweasel09

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Senior Member

08-26-2013

I don't know if you're still looking for feedback on nunu's ult with brush but here I go. If you were reading the forums a lot mid season 2 this will be old news but if not then story time. Nunu's ult worked the way it does now for a very long time until mid season 2 when riot decided to change it. The reasons behind it were good, the way it is isn't terribly intuitive now etc. The problem is getting off a full nunu ult without pulling an Empire nunu is nearly impossible, it's a long channel with an obvious animation and it's very easy to interrupt or simply flash out of before he finishes channeling it. Hitting a full nunu ult on 1 person is hard, hitting it on multiple people very rarely happens even with the brush trick.

People were mad, real mad. Nunu wasn't in the greatest spot at the time and nobody was really looking for nunu nerfs. It was making a mediocre champion worse in the name of game health. Better in the long run perhaps but a bitter pill to swallow and people were attached to the extra opportunities to display skill that brush ults presented. Riot took back the change saying they wanted to do it again eventually but that now probably wasn't the time and when the time came they'd need to have live balance take a long hard look at nunu's ult.

Honestly, if you're looking at FOW mechanics the time is probably now, but you're going to have to rope live design in to do it. Ideally nunu's ult should work similarly to how it was after the change but the balance team needs to fix the fact that without that trick you aren't ever going to be able to use his ult to it's full potential.


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exec3

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Another comment on the idea of revealing you when a skillshot hits. What happens if you throw a skillshot from one bush to another bush? That's pretty much a massive disadvantage to you because you'll get revealed for hitting the skillshot but the enemy will stay invisible.

As for some sort of reveal when you take a revealing action. I don't know, sounds kind of helpful but not that necessary as long as vision were setup to be consistent. I guess if you did something a small visual queue (eye's appearing on top of enemies heads for a second) and a sound could play like with Towers targeting you?


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emTmyclipin2u

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Hey guys, just thinking outloud here and I don't want to derail the conversation but as it is related:
Does anyone think there should be a good way to tell if you are being revealed by your own actions (not just standing in a warded brush) and if so any suggestions on how to do this without visually crowding the screen?
This reminds me of something I don't really think is fair in vision. When you autoattack in brush, it doesn't just reveal you, it reveals the area around you too. This means if I'm doing brush play as a support (autoattacking and hiding in brush to break minion aggro) and my carry steps into the brush and gets a cs, he reveals me too. This ruins a lot of plays in ganks, especially on twisted treeline, and punishes me for something I didn't do.

Another thing would be to hide auras of targets you can't see. A big reason Fiddlesticks isn't an amazing jungle in high ELO is he can't lane gank because his aura reveals him to anyone who's watching their buff bar. There should be some kind of rule that auras that are on champions that are not visible are not visible to the other team. This would count for both offensive items like Abyssal appearing on enemies as well as defensive auras like aegis not appearing on allies. This would make a lot of ganks and ambushes easier to coordinate, as you don't have to worry about your Aegis showing on your bait giving your position away.