I got Plat II playing almost exclusively Swain

First Riot Post
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Frostnight

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Don't touch Swain.

Don't look at him.

Just leave him be. Last thing I want is attention on him.


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Magic Spoon Lord

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post


3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?



Let me know what you think.
The Swain fantasy has always been, for me, wading into the enemy team with my ult ticking and being half unkillable. It makes me feel so powerful. I love it.


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Magic Spoon Lord

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Fubby, can you tell me your thoughts on tear of the goddess on Swain?


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Kikhan

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
I am not this guy but, I have played a lot of swain over the years.

1. I feel like there are actually plenty of items to choose from. The overall matchups usually force certain build paths though. The main issue is the all but, necessity of chalice and RoA being a little restrictive. Rarely are you going to have the game where you can stay weak all the way through mid game to develop Tear and Chalice into something meaningful and if you do you sacrifice durability to get there. Leaving Rylai's the only place to get bulk HP from late, minus some from Liandra's if it is viable for that match depending on match up needs. Building him is trade offs on tankiness/damage/length of time in fight. I enjoy these tradeoffs but, if you need Swain to be a tanky endurance mage. Why did you pick him over someone else that brings other strengths better. Then you are forced into Chalice and RoA early. I agree with your general priority list on build needs.

2. Really the main issues QoL that could be addressed are not numbers anyways. His weakness lies in pre 6 farming and sustain but, this is pretty much necessary due to the strength of his ult. Unfortunately that couldn't be fixed with out increasing his starting AD a Little or changing the way his spells affect minions. I am fine with this weakness overall. The next is the size of his snare I have always felt it should be a little bigger since the range is so short just a little. I cannot physically count the amount of times it has barely missed for me even though I try to cast it just at max range but, have to walk a hair closer for it to cast. Last would just be address his snowballing issue. If ahead he is stupid hard to kill with out antiheal and he hasn't built SV. If behind it is crazy hard to get back in the game to a damage point or durability point to be effective.

3. With the title tactician I expected someone that would manipulate the battlefield and be a force multiplier. Instead we got a giant aoe ball of lifesteal. I love the game play but, being an AP tank with a snare and slow who just wades into the enemy masses does not speak tactician to me. It speaks more like a vampire or something undying to me.


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Coldmanj

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
I love me some swain. there are a few things though that I dislike however when it comes to his current place in the game. Some of the more recent item changes have made Swain a poor pick because of the fact he does have mainly dots. DoT spells actually have a factor many people do not consider when it comes to calculating their actual damage dealt which is health regen. This is what makes Swain feel lack luster, if an opponent has enough health regen it is essentially reducing your spels per second damage from anywhere between 5-15 damage every second due to your opponent regenerating that health alongside each tick of your spell. With instant damage spells health regen doesn't really factor in.

this brings me to what I would like to see done to improve swains QoL. give one of his spells grievous wounds. This single addition doesn't add to his power over all, it doesn't effect his ratios or his base damage values. It would even add an extra level of utility to a team comp making swain a more viable and attractive pick. It also addresses the health regen dilemma I stated above.

I feel like torment decrepify or ravenous flock would be the best choices to put Grievous wounds on. If it were added to ravenous flock it would give swain a fun and interesting niche in team fights, and it even works thematically as the ravens are tearing off pieces of flesh which would leave nasty festering wounds.

oh another nice little add you could do is give the radius in which if you cast decrepify your bird will spwan


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Chaosos

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Swain's main issues seem to be centered around his autoattacks, passive, W and E. I think the subtle nature of his E could be cleaned up to make his kit work better.

Swain has low base AD because of E amplification. Make the damage amp only work on his magic damage, and you can increase his base AD without potentially making AD swain too good

Passive as noted feels underwhelming. Variety of suggestions in the thread on this.

W mana cost is trying to hold back his combos, but a better solution would be to make his E be the main centerpoint of Swain's combos. Increase E mana cost, decrease W mana cost, makes swain's all in costlier but makes it easier to rank up W and counterpush.

Increasing E CD at higher ranks and decreasing it at lower ranks would also be useful to solve the "feels unoptimal on the 2nd Q because E isn't up yet" problem.


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IS1496b8f95ed58e3cab95c

Member

08-25-2013

I also love swain, but have not had much/any success playing him. I think he is supposed to be defined as a short range tanky dps mage, who can burn through a single target with appropriate combos. For me, the most frustrating things about Swain are:

* His ability cooldowns always out of sync - do i cast q now for dps or do i wait 2 seconds so i can amplify its damage? Please make these all synced to 9 or 10 seconds at maximum rank.
* Infinite mana cost on his ultimate. Until i get 2-3 mana items i always feel like i need more mana/regen
* The ultimate only hits 3 targets. For a close range mage he does not get any more reward for being closer to the enemy.

These are come QoL changes I think would define his playstyle a lot better and make him more satisfying to play.

Swains current passive is a laning passive - very good in lane but once you have your RoA or other mana source it feels as if it doesn't exist. Its value is surprisingly high @+27 for level 18, but due to the nature of all your DoT abilities, poor waveclear, low damage autos and short range, it is almost never activated once the teamfight phase is enabled. I believe manavamp is a poor sulution (use mana to get mana), and permanent mana on minion kill would force him into Seraphs every game.

I would like to see something like kills and/or assists grant a percentage of maximum mana - cue athenes, or kills or assists reset the stacking mana cost on ultimate (which I propose to remove anyway). Perhaps something similar to trundles passive would work well - Restores mana each time a nearby enemy unit dies. Obviously the value would have to be adjusted or else there is no reward for skill mechanic.

Suggested Passive: Each time an enemy unit dies near Swain, he regains 4 (+0.33/Level) Mana. If Swain kills the unit he gets triple rewards. Champion kills and assists also give triple rewards. Range 1000.

Q: Cooldown increased to 9 seconds at all ranks, damage increased by 5 per rank to 30/45/60/75/90 (+30%AP) per second.
W: Cooldown reduced from 18/16/14/12/10 to 17/15/13/11/9 seconds
E: Cooldown reduced to 9 seconds at all ranks.

Very small changes to his QWE abilities - I like them as they are, but now they all have the same cooldown at max rank and he can combo a single target in a far more satisfyingly and consistently.

Suggested R: No bird limit, birds effect every target in range (550-600 range self-centered-AoE-DPS). Birds heal Swain for a flat amount - for example 5/10/15 (+5%AP) health (halved for minions/monsters). Mana cost changed to 6/7/8 per target hit per second.

This gives Swain some tools he desperately needs to be viable mid imo. With birds affecting every target he will be able to vaveclear as good as someone like Anivia post 6.

The change from heal based on damage dealt to a flat amount makes it more consistent - he can heal without having a void staff similar to how Elise W works. the amount is much lower because he can now hit more than 3 targets at once.

No bird limit gives swain an incentive to jump into the middle of a fight - just like Ryze. The closer he comes in the more targets he hits and more healing rewards he gets. Imo this change is the one that defines him as a short range tanky dps mage. He can play as a mage, sit back, build squishy and still be effective, but this gives him rewards for building tankier and taking more risks. As is there is almost zero incentive to walk closer than auto attack range, as your spells will likely only reach front line targets and so will the three birds from your ult (unless the adc is out of position). Lastly, its called Ravenous Flock. Technically its a murder of crows but I'm pretty sure we can agree that any such grouping would have more than three.

Swain remains the only champion in the game with infinite stacking mana costs, and because of it he does poorly in extended engagements - despite being defined as a dps mage. Othe lchampions with high mana costs skills - Anivia, Karthus can make do with a single mana item (RoA, Seraphs) but Swain struggles. Change the ultimate costs to a flat amount per second, or what I suggested Flat amount per target hit per second, or a mana cost cap. This way he has no infinite scaling, and will probably be OK with just a single mana item.


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Rikukun

Senior Member

08-25-2013

1. I guess my only itemization complaint with swain is that I am pretty much forced into tanky AP builds, with items like Chalice, RoA, and Rylais as my main damage sources. My other items are boots, spirit visage, and a situational item if I get that far. I guess it feels like I can never really hit that peak damage moment that I could get with a deathcap + void staff on other mages.

2. The only thing I can think of would be cast ranges or delay on his nevermove, although those aren't really QoL buffs. Also, Dragon Master Swain release.

3. Swain's fantasy imo is him being a giant bird monster running through enemies sustaining himself while dealing damage. The rest of his kit would be the place to make any major changes, if such were deemed necessary. His passive especially could be changed.

3a. I think it works great, except when you are inflicted with grievous wounds (usually from ignite) and you can't really do your job just from one summoner spell that is in every game. Having a better way to get rid of greivous wounds would be nice. Perhaps an upgrade for AP champs on QSS?


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Bynaar

Recruiter

08-25-2013

I feel like swain in bird form is a walking monster of death, but the problem is you need so many different stats to make him effective. You need hp and resists to survive the burst, you need ap and magic pen to deal damage and heal, you need cdr so you can turn off your ulti and then walk back into another fight without having to stand away from the fight for another 5 seconds and you need mana to supply your skills and ulti.

While swain would be pretty op if you were to buff him stats wise, I think making his ulti consume less mana will let him be more of... well... him. In most situations, that swain's ulti increases in mana cost per second isn't a big deal, but those times where you need to keep it on, the fact that it doesn't have a mana usage per second cap makes the skill feel pretty terrible.

I feel that in order to make swain be more swain-y is to either make his ulti cost a flat amount per second or put a cap where the skill stops increasing in mana cost per second.

Instead of costing 25 mana + an extra 5/6/7 mana to use per second

It should cost either 30/40/50 mana per second to use. Or keep the kill as is, but put a cap for the mana usage per second like 40/55/70 mana per second (numbers are ofc examples, testing would be needed to find reasonable mana costs)


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Hyjacked

Junior Member

08-25-2013

My favourite part of playing Swain has to be the feeling I get from sitting peacefully in lane, not really doing much, farming, throwing out the occasional nevermove...

And then when I land a snare, I explode into a bird and do half their hp in dots.