I got Plat II playing almost exclusively Swain

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Red October

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demagoguery View Post
I love the DoT aspect of him, but there are two things I hate about Swain:

1.) His inability to farm creeps being an AA dependent champion, with an AA speed the same as Karthus, who has an attack rate the speed of molasses. He does have like +6 initial damage on Karthus, but it's still painful, and Karthus just kind of farms with his Q as the AA is painfully slow.

2.) The passive just isn't good. At level 2 Karthus picks up his E and gets 20 mana a kill as long as the Aura isn't on. That's the same mana that Swain gets a kill at level 11 from his passive. Not only that but the passive because almost non-existent when you get to late game and you're in a team fight, like the best that can happen is you get +25 mana for killing a champion? That's just terrible.

The concept is cool, but it's nowhere near the level of Trundle's passive, or Karthus's E passive. Maybe keep the mana regen on kill, but give it a little something because it's just not strong at all. Especially when you have such a hard time farming due to your reliance on AA and short range.

Edit:

3.) This isn't so much an issue because Swain is more of a lane bully than the normal mid but if you look at the most common mids people prefer the boil down into the following:

High roaming/mobility champions: Ahri, Kass, TF, Zed, and even Karthus all have some ability to impact other lanes from mid by either having super mobility or ults that let them simply impact other lanes from being around mid.

High utility champs:This is mostly Orianna, she has a really high skill cap but once going she has so much utility with a shield, speed/slow, and an ult that just destroys team fights. Sure, Swain can pile drive fights and can have the ability to snare a group of people, but he doesn't have the utility of Kayler or Orianna.

Edit 2:

What if instead of just regenerating mana off of his passive, he gains it for killing a unit? As in his passive is like that of Nasus's Q, Veiger's Q, or Sion's E? That way it still has a similar function to its original form, by acting as a sort of mana regen method, but it lets him build up some more mana without having to invest so much gold into it.

You'd have to reduce the amount he gains, but it would really make his life better, and allow him to have a higher mana pool over time.
Excellent idea.


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Demagoguery

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Thank you to everyone who likes my ideas on Swain's passive, I think it would be an awesome thing to do and I don't think it would really make him over the top, but it would reduce the itemization he needs to worry about. Ideally I'm thinking that with decent farm the passive should provide roughly 500 mana in the late game, this would only be 50% of what Tear provides when fully stacked and depends on you having a good amount of farm when you're at about let's say 150-200 CS at the 20-30 minute mark (since Swain isn't as easy to farm on as other champions.). Tear is also only a 700g item that doesn't really depend on farm and provides additional mana regen, so I don't think this upgrade would be too over the top, and the final number can be adjusted, and can also be played with since it the amount of mana gained can be easily affected by level so that Swain doesn't have too much early game or too little late game. It would also mean that if a player is really good at farming on Swain they can exceed that amount as 200 farm is decent, but not extraordinary for players. A player with bad farm (100ish around 20-30 minutes) should at least gain the benefits of a Sapphire Crystal. I think it should also scale with level, rather than be a flat amount, so that a player who does fall behind early for whatever reason can still make it up later if needed since the mid level advantage is where the majority of the mana should come from.

I don't know, maybe I'm way off base but it seems reasonable to me. What do you think Fubby and Scarizard?


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Hydraxy

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08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Swain is a pretty powerful champion under the right circumstances, but is typically seen as unpopular. We generally attribute this to his 3 DoT spells and the one delayed skillshot, as deferred reward in our game are appreciated/valued less unless their power is pretty massive (think Death Mark)). That said, a few questions for you sir:

1. Do you feel like you don't have -enough- items to build? Which stats are most important to you as a Swain player? I've always felt like i needed Mana, Mana regen, Health, AP, CDR, Pen, and then Resists - and have often found it difficult to itemize overall.

2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)

3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?

3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?

(This isn't a precursor to a 'Let's Talk' thread or a Swain rework, just up late watching Gamescom and sincerely interested in what you'd answer as a Swain player.)

Let me know what you think.
As a Swain main in Diamond 2 (promos to Diamond 1), I'll comment some:
1) Itemization for Swain:
I think you are partially right, since Swain wants to be tanky and every mage wants CDR, AP, Mana, etc, and then add on to that that Swain wants health and resists too, he has a lot of stats that he wants to build. I feel like he has plenty of good items though
Items which work really well on Swain:
RoA
Abyssal
Hourglass

That's pretty much core. Then you have Deathcap/Void for damage or you can get Athenes if you need more mana regen and CDR (plus athene's passive of restoring mana on kills/assists is really good on Swain). Or you can get Spirit visage if you need more HP, MR, and CDR.

I feel like there are plenty of items as long as you don't fall in to the trap of trying to build a ton of mana on him. Because of the nature of his ult, having a ton of mana is not that useful anyway since having double the mana doesn't get you double the ult duration (due to the scaling nature of the ults costs). You're better off just managing your ult in teamfights correctly.

2) QoL changes:
I honestly think Swain is pretty strong. Not like OP strong but he bullies a LOT of champs in midlane, and he can snowball himself really hard if he gets ahead. I don't really think he needs a buff, but here are two things I find annoying.

Q is weird to use. If you use it at max range, it works for like 1s max and then they get out of range (if they're running away). But its range is longer than the cast range of the spell by a bit so it does work for a second. It would be nice (but maybe too big of a buff) if the raven went a bit further towards the enemy when you used it, so that it was a slightly more effective slow at max range (wouldn't really change much if enemy was running towards you, etc).

R is awesome and I love pretty much everything about it, but since Swain has to use it to CS, it would be nice if there was some logic by which it prioritized low HP minions (so that it could actually hit better). So targeting like this:
Champions (by proximity?) -> Minions (by HP).

3) Swains Fantasy:
Swain is a tank mage. His "awesome moments" come from running into enemy team with ult on, popping hourglass after taking a bunch of damage, getting a kill with DoTs as an enemy runs away, healing up and having your team come in and save you as you're about to die. In lane the same thing - start a fight and get super low, but survive through use of ult and win the fight (his health pool is deceptive). I think he fulfills this fantasy very well now, and he's pretty good at it. He also has this thing going for him (like Morde) where he is very strong around minions and much weaker in a straight 1v1, which is a neat thing as well.


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Sunbathing Swain

Junior Member

08-25-2013

guide too short for me, http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-le...powered-266214
this guy started using Swain and Vlad to climb when LeBlanc stopped working
on EUW
rushes RoA, possibly boots then Zhonya's into other items
says that Swain can build other items than the one he uses, but the item slots are more efficient with these for his playstyle

and from my understanding, he enjoys that enemies don't know how much damage to allocate to kill you (as Swain), either they dogpile and waste all their ults or they don't manage to kill you and you're still doing damages and healing up. Zhonya's helps with the dogpiling


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Colinorr

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydraxy View Post
R is awesome and I love pretty much everything about it, but since Swain has to use it to CS, it would be nice if there was some logic by which it prioritized low HP minions (so that it could actually hit better). So targeting like this:
Champions (by proximity?) -> Minions (by HP).
Ah I forgot to mention this in my post. Trying to last hit under your birds picking their targets at random is really difficult. If there was some way to control and predict which minions get hit, that would be great. Even just having it target the closest 3 minions would help a lot.

Also someone mentioned changing nevermove's name back to nevermore. It's just personal preference, but nevermore does have a nicer sound to it. Nevermove is just punny, and doesn't fit the character


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youSTAYback

Junior Member

08-25-2013

As the "master tactician" the fantasy of playing swain is to skillfully outplay your lane opponent. Thinking a few steps ahead and trapping your enemy then punishing them for their mistake is what makes swain feel rewarding


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Hollywood Cool

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
2. Without buffing Swain (you can err on this a little), do you have any suggestions to make the lives of Swain players easier (QoL) or simply more fun? (PSA: We consider QoL typically as changes that smooth out a champion that aren't power-level focused - adding ratios, ranges, etc don't count typically)
I don't want to buff his damage, that would be dumb. What I believe would be a really good idea is to buff his passive. I want to be able to be able to viably regenerate my mana by last hitting. As well as a numbers boost, I believe this should also be the case:

-Swain gains (more than now) mana every time he kills a unit. If Swain kills a unit with an ability he refunds x% of the ability cost. If Swain kills an enemy champion with an ability the ability is completely refunded. (if he kills a champion with an autoattack it would be double the gain if he were to have killed a minion.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
3. What do you feel like is Swain's 'fantasy' as a game goes on - what do you feel defines him? Champions like Ezreal and Vayne want to dart around a fight dealing damage and kiting, Mages like Syndra and Veigar want to set up and then crush their opponent in one blow - what do you think is your 'I am Epic' moment for Swain?
Jumping into the middle of people and casting a good amount of sustained damage while staying alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
3a. If you do have an endgame fantasy that you think fits Swain, do you think it's working out atm? Are there things you think we could do to improve on it?
Pfft, no matter what he's so mana starved throughout the game that i don't think you guys can improve upon it without some kind of resource buff.


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Still Eternity

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Bump for Birdmaster


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LichMazter

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExaltedVanguard View Post
I don't have anything for Swain specifically, but I do have a series of QoL fixes for a few various champions which should be addressed.

1) Allow activation of Shyvana's Q and W mid-leap during her ult. If you don't activate them prior to leaping, there's an awkward pause after landing when you're trying to get them to come up.

2) I saw a minion attacking Jarvan's standard yesterday.

3) Vayne's tumble is inconsistent in the way it funtions. After tumbling without ult, she will continue to attack her previous target. With ult active, she will stop attacking to preserve the stealth. I can see the values of having it this way, but also feel that consistency (one way or the other) in this regard may be more valuable.

4) Syndra's W is incredibly inconsistent. Travel time is variable depending on where she's holding the unit. Can be anything from near-instant to a good 0.5s delay.

4a) This is potentially a buff for Syndra, but her W is really awkward in general. When you push a sphere with your E, you can grab it before it travels the full distance. If it does travel the full distance, it's out of range for you to grab. I suggest that the skill so that orbs grabbed mid-push still travel the full distance, and that grabbing an orb (not a minion of course) has unlimited range (it will still default to closest one, of course).

5) Master Yi disappears from the mini-map when he Q's, when most other champions remain on the map when they go untargetable.

6) Going untargetable pops projectiles but does not break leashes. This seems like another strange inconsistency, and the difference isn't communicated very well in-game. You pretty much learn this when you die because you didn't know it.

7) I'm fairly sure Pantheon's Heartseeker strike is the only skill in the game which has a tooltip that lists damage dealt to minions and says, "double damage to champions." This is contrast to listing damage dealt to champions and saying half damage to minions.

8) I'd love to see an option to make tool tips list combined damge values such as 93 instead of "70+23"

9) The tooltip for Teemo's mushrooms doesn't state that it reveals the target for the duration of the damage.

10) Player-created terrain still doesn't interact with terrain-related abilities. Also, I know Trundle's pillar interrupts channels. Does Anivia wall? I don't remember if she was changed as well.

11) Why does Kassadin's W not have a particle effect? A few other skills I feel would greatly benefit players by having particle effects (when they're availible): Anivia Passive, Blitzcrank Passive, Volibear Passive, ZAC Passive.

12) Shaco clone always spawns in same spot relative to Shaco. Particle effects. Items. Etc. This "deception" skill isn't very deceiving.

13) The amount of game-knowledge Cleanse requires is staggering. It will remove ignite's DoT, but not darius's bleed. It will remove the attack speed slow from ice-ball, but not the attack speed slow from gragas barrels. It would be a straight-up buff, but the spell would be a lot more usable if it simply removed ALL negative effects (except maybe suppress?) ala quick silver sash.

14) Shyvana Q does bonus damage to turrets, but not inhibitors. Odd. I can't remember if she gains fury off inhibs, either. She also doesn't gain fury while dead - meaning she has the only ultimate in the game that doesn't "cool down" in some way while dead.

15) Skills like Rivens Q or Nidalee's jump should have some sort of option to smartcast toward the cursor instead. Current functionality should be preserved for those used to it. An option like this is never a bad thing.

16) When running away on Syndra, casting behind you at near-max range with moderate ping will often result in you turning around because you're now out of range (due to connection latency and game delays). I'd imagine this also applies to Orianna (though often less deadly due to her higher range). I'm not sure if there's much you can do to fix this, but it's definitely an issue.
Dude, he asked for QoL buffs for swain...


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KYU22

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Anyone else have trouble last hitting early with Swain under turret?