Does Lucian have pre-rework Trundle problems?

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CBlazer

Senior Member

08-25-2013

TL;DR: Attack speed on Lucian seems like a wasted stat, because of his Q-W-E animations. Looking for rational open-minded discussion, please.

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Old Trundle's clunky animations cut into his dps and were part of the reason for his rework. The time it took to use an ability was sometimes better spent just auto-attacking.

In comparison, Ezreal is a good example of crisp and quick animations that allow you to thread your abilities between autoattacks to increase your dps (and have a lot of fun, too) even when you have high attack speed. In fact, high attack speed is inherent in Ezreal, due to his passive.

Along comes Lucian -- a champion whose passive openly begs you to thread your abilities between autoattacks (like Ezreal). He is also a rare ADC with an ability that explicitly scales with attack speed (his ult). But after playing pretty much nothing but Lucian, and after trying many different builds (some standard, some wacky), I'm starting to see a conflict in his kit.

Dollar for dollar, building raw AD, crit, and armor pen seems much better on Lucian than building attack speed -- because:

1) He is not a stand-and-shoot-continuously adc, like Caitlyn. He is also not a use-every-ability-simultaneously burst adc, like Corki. Lucian relies on threading abilities between autoattacks, like Ezreal. This is partly due to his autoattack range, which is not great, thus he is closer to danger when autoattacking. And partly due to his passive, which amplifies his dps when you thread abilities.

2) But his Q-W-E animations do not seem to accelerate with attack speed. His Q animation is especially slow, costing him a fraction of an autoattack at moderate-to-high attack speed. Although using Q will always increase his dps due to its damage, scaling, and the passive proc (compared to simply autoattacking continuously) compare these two scenarios: A) Lucian bought an attack speed item and threaded a Q between autoattacks; or B) Lucian bought an AD item and threaded a Q between autoattacks. Lucian with the AD item will do more damage. The attack speed item did not benefit Lucian much in this specific scenario, because both Lucians attacked at about the same attack speed. His attack speed was dictated by the animation of the Q -- not by his attack speed stat. Same holds for W and E (though W seems pretty crisp).

3) Even though Lucian's ult scales with attack speed, and that's new and exciting for people, the ult also scales with raw AD and armor pen. In fact, if you analyze it with science, dollar-for-dollar the scaling is nearly identical. (I will explain the math in a reply, later; gtg) So Lucian's ult, alone, is not a good reason to buy attack speed instead of AD.

4) The situations where Lucian stands/kites-and-shoots-continuously, without threading abilities, are when his abilities are all on cooldown or when he is oom. In that specific situation, attack speed is a multiplicative stat that benefits Lucian just like it benefits other adcs. But how did he get in that situation? He got there by first going through a full rotation of skill-AA-skill-AA-skill-AA, thereby putting his abilities on cooldown. And for that opening rotation, raw AD/crit/pen benefitted him more than attack speed, for the reasons above. And if he spent his money on raw AD/crit/pen items (rather than attack speed items) his opening rotation did fantastic burst. The target is likely dead or forced out, and it is time for Lucian to reposition (not stand-and-shoot). Plus his cooldowns are medium/short, meaning he will thread again soon. Which brings us back to reason #1... Lucian, at heart, imho, is not a stand/kite-and-shoot adc.

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I, like many, was really excited to see a new adc with high mobility and an ability that scaled with attack speed. I envisioned many creative builds and play patterns based on fast attacks, high skill cap, and high mobility. But I'm starting to form the opinion that Lucian should build the exact opposite -- stack tons of AD, crit, lifesteal, and armor pen. Don't bother with attack speed. Hit "slow" and hard.

My current core build: Bloodthirster, Infinity Edge, Last Whisper.

Boots situational (usually Bers Greaves). Situational defensive item (usually GA).

It's not flashy at all, which is sad for me, because I was hoping for something flashy from Lucian.

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Those are my thoughts on Lucian. I'm not saying he's OP or UP, or that his animations need to be buffed. I'm just saying that he has turned out to be a very different kind of adc than the one I was expecting. Hoping to spur some thoughtful discussion. Thanks for reading.

@5v5guy


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X1zz3l

Member

08-25-2013

If you think AS is wasted on Lucian because of his skills then it's wasted on Graves too

His Q-W-E don't scale either


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lownverted

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Lucian scales horribly with AS


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Diana Loves BBC

Member

08-25-2013

Lucian is more of an AD caster/carry. You're meant to weave your abilities along with your autos to take advantage of his insanely powerful passive.


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CBlazer

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by X1zz3l View Post
If you think AS is wasted on Lucian because of his skills then it's wasted on Graves too

His Q-W-E don't scale either
Graves does not rely on threading short-cooldown QWE between autoattacks. Graves' pattern is burst then stand/kite and continuously autoattack, using E as appropriate, where attack speed becomes a gold-efficient multiplicative stat.


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CBlazer

Senior Member

08-25-2013

I should clarify:

It's not that I believe AS is a wasted stat on Lucian. Rather, I believe it is not a gold-efficient purchase, in light of the alternatives.

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Regarding AS vs AD scaling on his ult:
At level 16, his ult does 60 base damage +0.25 bonus AD per bullet. He fires 7.5 +10.5xAS bullets. This equates to an extra bullet approximately every +15% attack speed. That means Berserker Greaves buys you one extra bullet. Greaves+Shiv buys 4 extra bullets. Despite being more expensive and having more bonus AS, Greaves+PD also buys 4 extra bullets, because it does not hit the +75% breakpoint for 5 extra bullets. So, for the most favorable comparison, lets consider the cheaper item: Statik Shiv.

Statik Shiv costs 2500g. A comparable AD/pen item is Last Whisper (2300g).

Assuming Greaves in both builds, then Shiv buys 3 more bullets during Lucian's ult. In total, those bullets do 180+0.75 bonus AD. Thus, Shiv stacks multiplicatively with other AD items that Lucian has built, and seems good at first blush.

BT+Shiv=255 extra dmg from Shiv's 3 extra bullets, because each extra bullet does base+BT damage, before armor. (100 extra dmg when hitting 153 armor; 128 extra dmg when hitting 100 armor)

Still assuming Greaves, Last Whisper buys no extra bullets, but the approximately 18 bullets that Lucian fires will each hit for 10 extra dmg, before armor. The 35% armor pen on LW, however, will stack multiplicatively with other AD items that Lucian has built. BT alone adds 1530 damage to the ult, before armor; which is reduced to 604 damage when hitting 153 armor, and 765 damage when hitting 100 armor. Thus, LW adds:

BT+LW=180 extra dmg from the AD on LW alone, before armor. (90 extra dmg when hitting 153 armor, after 35% pen; 109 extra dmg when hitting 100 armor, after 35% pen) But with the 35% pen of LW, the damage added to the ult by BT becomes 765 when hitting 153 armor, and 927 when hitting 100 armor. Total damage added by LW: 251 when hitting 153 armor; 271 extra damage when hitting 100 armor.

Last Whisper thus gives more than double the benefit of Shiv to Lucian's ult. And note that it's exactly the same result for PD (except for the fact that PD costs more).

And none of Lucian's other abilities benefit from Shiv, whereas they do benefit from LW.

What about the static proc? The Shiv proc has a fun, hard-to-quantify interaction with Lucian's passive and his mobile style. Shiv also has crit, which is valuable for the reasons above. But even accounting for these, the money spent for the attack speed and static proc on Shiv seems better spent on the AD and pen of LW, due to Lucian's limited AS and high burst while threading QWE (as discussed above).

TL;DR: Even though Lucian's ult scales with attack speed, it scales better with raw AD and pen. Lucian's ult is not a good reason to stack attack speed.


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BACKSTABUUU

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Senior Member

08-25-2013

I feel like Lucian's animations are short enough to facilitate casting in between autoattacks.


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Arduno

Senior Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBlazer View Post
TL;DR: Attack speed on Lucian seems like a wasted stat, because of his Q-W-E animations. Looking for rational open-minded discussion, please.



My current core build: Bloodthirster, Infinity Edge, Last Whisper.

Boots situational (usually Bers Greaves). Situational defensive item (usually GA).

It's not flashy at all, which is sad for me, because I was hoping for something flashy from Lucian.

---

Those are my thoughts on Lucian. I'm not saying he's OP or UP, or that his animations need to be buffed. I'm just saying that he has turned out to be a very different kind of adc than the one I was expecting. Hoping to spur some thoughtful discussion. Thanks for reading.

@5v5guy
Indeed BT,Tri-Force and the red enchantment and if they build armor Last Whisper, if not Infinity Edge and GA been playing him some games but i have to agree that this works pretty good for him

Also noticed its hard for lucien to fully use his ultimate unless someone is chasing him.


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Diana Loves BBC

Member

08-25-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBlazer View Post
TL;DR: Even though Lucian's ult scales with attack speed, it scales better with raw AD and pen. Lucian's ult is not a good reason to stack attack speed.
This tl;dr was already well known. A potentially high damaging ult because of the base damage plus ridiculous AD scaling means you get a lot of AD and penetration. Sound like a certain Monkey King? I think so.