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New Tower Items on PBE

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Komeiji Koishi

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
So while I've seen a lot of 2v1 lanes in LCS, I've never actually had to play against one in a live game. Are 2v1 lanes a real problem or are they just a pro-level issue?


I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "real problem"; do you mean either for the laning phase in general or for the one outnumbered side facing the 1v2 lane?

This is just speaking from personal experience, but in a rare Ranked Solo Queue match (High Silver / Low Gold) way back near the end of season two and the beginning of season three I told my team not to take a jungler and go duo top, since one of them was arguing over it anyway and the other hesitantly accepted my suggestion after consideration. I predicted accurately in champ select that the enemy team's toplane couldn't handle a 2v1 and lost, while their jungler had really slow clear times (invading our jungle, but we didn't really care) and would always have to back off or die trying to help the 1v2 toplane, not to mention lose time ganking other lanes. Of course the two side of the 2v1 lane came out with higher CS, if the side with one had any CS at all, while sacrificing lower XP and of course the buffs in our jungle. We eventually outpushed and won.

In normal queue, however, I haven't had much problem facing a 1v2 toplane. If I picked a champion suited to handle such a situation (which are dwindling currently) I generally stay level with their CS since they have to share between the two and jungle gets a free pass at the enemy buffs and gets to gank other lanes. I would also reach level 6 earlier and at which point would have enough burst to at least kill one of them before backing. My own jungler can coordinate a gank really well to outplay them if it comes to that. On the other hand, if I picked a champion unable to handle such a lane I'd probably hug the tower whilst occasionally reaching out to XP range whenever a minion died and only taking the melee minions for CS, and I can't depend on my jungler to gank because he might die doing it. Most of the time I'm heavily pushed to the tower because I don't hit any minions anyway, and if I do get ganked by the enemy jungler, I figure that's just time from the enemy team wasted "beating a dead horse" so to speak and not helping the other lanes which I hope are winning for me.

I don't see it as a problem personally but merely a result of careful calculation and a form of counterplay that can be rewarding. If you do see it as a problem however I don't see any easy way to mitigate it.

Quote:
TerminalVeloc1ty:
I've done it a few times in a live game, It's ****ing miserable on the recieving end of it. You basically are helpless until a jungler arrive, and even then it's risky if you actually want to have some fights because after even just one back to buy items, the enemy has more gold than you, and so you're going to not be contributing as much.


Well it's just as miserable having no possible counterplay on the receiving end of a midlane post-6 Kassadin/Leblanc and I personally don't see a problem with that if they specifically picked those champions to counter me. Just as they would pick a 2v1 lane to counter the one guy risking no jungler. Unless of course their debilitating silences which prevent counterplay are exactly what is toxic to this game, and I fully support that.

ForeverLaxx also hit most of the other points concerning 2v1 lanes.


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Komeiji Koishi

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Continuing from earlier

You know, now that I think about it, I kinda preferred it like in Season 1 when the lanes were still 2 top 1 mid 2 bot and not when people discovered this radical and interesting new way to play called hiding in the jungle that's now become really stale and boring. The 2v2 toplane always had a dynamic interaction about it where the two parties would try to guess what the other guy is aiming for, whether it'd be supporting his partner, getting CS, trading harass, etc. One of them would go all in, and the other would back off his teammate if he was scared or turn it around in his favor, or one of them would try to sneak around the tribush, etc. Or maybe that's just nostalgia speaking to me.

Now the jungle mechanic on the other hand is really stale, at least in my division, where the standard is "Place ward, watch for enemy jungler, if he's there play passively." This is unfun for the jungler and both parties in the lane the jungler is trying to gank. You can't depend on anyone in Solo Queue to counterward with pinks or buy oracles until the lategame because it's that pricey, and you usually can't do it yourself because you also risk setting back your core jungle build until midgame, when jungle phase is practically over. By that time, you're left giving blue to mid and red to ADC/toplane, it's unsafe to farm lane minions and that's usually left to the laning champs, and you only jungle the small camps because you feel you have to. Sure you get the occasional teamfight at Dragon/Baron, but your designation as "jungler" is practically over at that point: you're just the guy with smite.


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Krufix

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
So while I've seen a lot of 2v1 lanes in LCS, I've never actually had to play against one in a live game. Are 2v1 lanes a real problem or are they just a pro-level issue?


They are a real problem whether or not you personally find them in game.
They are completely unfun to watch for viewers watching the LCS.

Who in their right mind wants to see Wickd's Irelia or Dyrus' Rumble or whoever, towerhugging, unable to get any farm, desperately trying to stay in experience range in the face of a 2v1? Meanwhile the same thing happens in the opposite lane too..
No, they want to see proper duels against evenly matched odds. They want to see mindgames and outplays, where the players can really stretch their legs and go ham if the opportunity presents itself.

The pro-scene is just so boring compared to how it was before this 2v1 lane meta happened.


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3mptylord

Senior Member

08-23-2013

I was hoping the Crystal Mark would be an update that allows Ohmwrecker to target the nearest tower, not necessarily only an enemy tower (so it has a buffing and debuffing effect, like Garrison).

The Transmutation one only really serves any use before level 6, if you're against a lane that pushes to lane super quickly and you don't have enough damage to kill any of the minions from the health tower leaves it at before it fires the next shot.


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Shinjusuke

Recruiter

08-23-2013

Quote:
BoredTent:

As for the cons, the Transmute could make bot lane very snowbally if you get pushed out of lane or you both get killed at the right time. And the Crystal one would make early diving and ganks even more difficult then they are already.


So implement them both, I think that's the point:

If you're tower diving (which is easy, by the way, Idk what you're talking 'bout lol), you might grab that gold under the turret, but chances are with that 'roided turret you're going to get owned and feed the person you dove.

Furthermore, if you're outplaying your lane opponent enough that you killed them both WITHOUT diving them, then you deserve rewarded.

So, if you're behind because you're losing lane and DON'T play defensively, LIKE YOU SHOULD BE, then you're going to just keep doing worse. If you ARE, you have a fairly safe recovery method.


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Asif25

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Rivini:
As already mentioned by others, it wouldn't be. It'd be giving an additional bonus to the winning side, resulting in even less of a chance for the losing side to come back. It sounds about as anti-fun as playing on purple side.

If it's insisted by Riot that anyone can pick up the gold bags, at least make it drop right next to the tower and when an enemy picks up the gold, the tower will shout, "THIEF!" and immediately begin attacking them. Yes, the tower must have the speech bubble to complete the effect.


lol


edit: give items to monsters and minons


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Astral Yorae

Recruiter

08-23-2013

Quote:
Xelnath:
OH, I see!

... would that be fun?


For sure!!!


Astral Yorae.


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Tortferngatr

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Hmm. Why not make enemy minion deaths near a player provide decent gold regardless of whether the player last-hit it (split based on the # of nearby players) and make last-hits provide ADDITIONAL gold on top of that?

I might not be seeing all the consequences, but it would seem to reduce the farm advantage of a 2v1 lane and adds an income source for supports.


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Needles K

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Tortferngatr:
Hmm. Why not make enemy minion deaths near a player provide decent gold regardless of whether the player last-hit it (split based on the # of nearby players) and make last-hits provide ADDITIONAL gold on top of that?

I might not be seeing all the consequences, but it would seem to reduce the farm advantage of a 2v1 lane and adds an income source for supports.

Why not just increase the ambient gold directly?


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Kiraid Lciem

Junior Member

08-23-2013

Here are some more items effects that need to be listed so that I do not have to explain them to new players anymore beyond, make a custom game and read the tower items.

Immune to magic penetration and armor penetration.
Attacking this target will not give health from lifesteal or spell vamp.