So you're planning to "Scaridize" talon?

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

agbudar

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Toad View Post
Counter =/= Counterplay

"Counterplay" refers to the decisions an enemy can take during a fight that can minimize or neutralize an enemy. Ahri has counterplay because you can dodge her Q/E (and dodging her E makes it much harder for her to combo you). Zed has counterplay because it takes a couple seconds for his full combo to take effect, as well as his Q being dodgeable. Clearly, these champions are still effective despite posessing counterplay.

Talon does not have good counterplay. He jumps at you instantly from a distance with his E, silences you, QWR with a few autos mixed in (and possible ignite), and you're either dead or you're not. Nowhere in there can you make any meaningful decisions to lessen his impact outside of "run away".
he jumps at you not expecting that you have merc threads and tenacity from masteries and then you proceed to kill him get a free kill yada yada yada

done
yknow only when people are stupid enough can talon get fed seriously.. his skills have horrendous cooldowns his ult feels like that of eve barely/no kills with it.
and you still nerf him...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Gespens

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleboo View Post
It's been going on for a while now.
Riot has never patched it.
The current rework on Rengar has 0% to do with this bug.
Lol? Good 1 bro.
Skarner was bugged on release and Riot left it in because it was cool. When it started becoming too big of a problem in high level and tournament play, it was removed.

Just because it is not on the rework (which is not even on PBE) doesn't mean they will not patch it. Stop being obtuse.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bbuehler

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Don't know where you got the idea that i'm planning to rework Talon. Let me be clear - not all things with low/no counterplay in our game are going to be reworked or straight up nerfed - just that their lack of counterplay makes it difficult to buff these champions. In my examples i cited Corki's Phosphorus Bomb as a skill with low counterplay, which kept us from buffing it by lowering the mana cost (which is easily the #1 change players wanted) - instead, we tiptoed around making missile barrage stronger and lowering other costs.

This is not 'rework talon'. This is not 'pick examples of champions that have low/no counterplay and Scarizard is going to ruin him for the entire playerbase'. All this is, is saying that champions with low/no counterplay can't have significant buffs or updates generally without solving these issues, or at least trading off power from their non-gameplay spell into their more gameplay spells (There have been nerfs for Varus/Zed where we took some amount of damage from their E skills, and then put them back on their more defining and risky Q's).

Talon's a really strong champion that i'm sure you know has been quoted by a ton of other reds as having one of the higher winrates in our game - i mained him from his release to about a month or so before i joined Riot, and can attest that he is super fun to play. The reality of the situation is you fight a talon in 3 steps - 1. You're Silenced. 2. He's invisible. 3. You or He is dead. There are counters to Talon, but his skill execution on a champion has no real counterplay.

I repeat, this does not mean Talon and all champions with low counterplay in our game are all going to get changes and everything you know is going to get wacky and the game will never look the same. All i'm saying is that instances of low counterplay keeps us from directly buffing/changing things about a character that will give a positive effect. In some cases (Like Nunu's consume mini-game in return for big consume nerfs) this can be creative and received well, but in other cases (Keep Corki's Q Manacost skyhigh but tweak the other stuff) holds us back from doing what we, and players would directly like.
I tried to read all the red posts in this thread. So i hope this isn't answered somewhere due to the tracker being bugged. Can we please get some serious PR about all the hate on your reworks? Whether or not it's actaully answered somewhere doesnt matter. There needs to be a sticky or something. Because right now all i see on GD when its about these recent champ reworks is that you are the hitler of changes and all those champs are completely ruined/no fun now. Which im sure isn't the case, but i guess it could be. There has got to be a better player QA/communication. These forums literally make me think riot is going under/all champs are getting nerfed/weird stuff is OP/ etc etc. I think these forums cause more harm to public opinion on league thigns than it helps answer.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LucifronSun

Master Recruiter

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarizard View Post
Nothing. I was giving an example of Talon as an assassin with low counterplay in a separate thread, and insoy inferred incorrectly that i or the Live Design team plan on reworking/making changes to Talon when we aren't.
Since you're here, could you update us on the state of that theoretical vlad rework one of the reds talked about awhile ago? He's got a few problems as of right now and he's in a pretty poor state, is he even being looked at still?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

AHeroNamedHawke

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleboo View Post
It's been going on for a while now.
Riot has never patched it.
Riot has no awareness to this bug, because none of their players can do it.
The current rework on Rengar has 0% to do with this bug.
Lol? Good 1 bro.
Let me rephrase that then: Why should I bother learning to abuse a bug on a champion I could care less about? I play Darius like a man.

In other news, if you keep dick riding this guy you are going to lose the ability to walk. Just a heads up.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dory

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Lol you guys so mad.
I just want a reason behind Rengar's rework, since many other characters obviously need one before he does.
@Gespens Sadly I think only 1 person can do the bug, and I know maybe 1-2 who can do the miniature version.
Pretty sure Riot doesn't know about it =/
Well.. now they do since I told them >.<


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

SouL1ess

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gespens View Post
Okay, Veig's stun can be evaded since it is an AoE that procs if you don't use a blink, and Zed's ultimate was designed as a 'I am either killing you or taking you with me' idea.

And Suppresses are supposed to be that way. If memory serves, they were made because those ults were too easily countered.
Veigar can place the AoE directly on top of you for instant stun.

The whole Talon kit is "I am killing you or taking you with me". His ult is cancelled for damage, not used for an escape.

The post I responded to specifically said "QSS or not be able to do anything". Suppresses are exactly that. Want to get out of Malzahar Null Zone? Too bad, get ulted. You can't do anything while suppressed. What can you do about it, except for QSS?

"Being forced to QSS in order to be able to do anything isn't considered 'counterplay'" Malz has no counterplay especially now, you can cast null zone while moving (aka it doesn't have a cast time), so he can chain it into ult almost instantly. Don't even bring up the teammate argument, because it's definitely not possible to peel Talon off your ADC. /sarcasm


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Mecha KhaZix

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleboo View Post
It's been going on for a while now.
Riot has never patched it.
Riot has no awareness to this bug, because none of their players can do it.
The current rework on Rengar has 0% to do with this bug.
Lol? Good 1 bro.
Good thing no one knows about the bug with Poppy..

I fear she's going to be reworked soon, though..


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

The Roman Empire

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insoy View Post
Took me 2 weeks to figure that out when he was release..... Been there for years. I have to let every1 know this when I advise them on talon.. How is it that you just know this now?

I have much more to say but players can just keep it in the shadows since you guys really don't just test everything out.
They didn't just discover the bug you ****ing dolt, they just figured out how to fix it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Insoy View Post
Everything you've touched as a rework for Rengar has been denied by the community, why should we trust you in other champs again when you are about to murder Rengar earlier?
Do you have trouble reading? He JUST SAID he isn't going to touch Talon. And not everything he's done has been "denied" by the community (whatever the hell that means). He even reverted the most egregious changes based on community feedback. Let's not forget he's not the only one working on these reworks and the community has absolutely NO idea what these changes play like or what gameplay will follow.

I'm sure it's fun trying to twist his words and manipulate the discussion just so you can pretend to be outraged and continue your witch-hunt, but you're just posting garbage at this point.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dory

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecha KhaZix View Post
Good thing no one knows about the bug with Poppy..

I fear she's going to be reworked soon, though..
Lol the stun bug?