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[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Penetration:
BC only makes sense if we buy Botrk as well. Which makes 2 rather expensive items.
AP pen: Liandry and wits end. both fit her.

WIts end still works well on her. Somehow it seems a bit forgotten.


I too hope that there is "something else" soming for Shyvana in addition to the range size.
A tank buff maybe, hybrid pen or a different scaling ?


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Expensive items and balance between damage and tanking is nightmarish when equipping Shyvana.

The issue is right now on live, that you have to have damage otherwise you should have built a different character. At the same time you need to be able to offtank at a minimum and often be a "full tank". The problem is that she currently doesn't scale toward tanking or damage late game, so her item requirements become really stiff.

Given these requirements I am currently replacing BORK with trinity since the sustained runspeed gives her more consistent threat with objectives, tower pushing, and chasing. And the extra health starts her down the path of needed tank stats. And the damage difference between BORK and the new Trinity seems almost non existent except on really super tanky targets with high sustain (Nasus and Trundle come to mind).

Wits end while a good item alone, fails to provide stats she needs the most IMO. Wits end doesn't provide any health, movement speed, sustain, or gap closing. And while it provides damage and MR... BORK, Trinity and Black Cleaver all provide more damage. Trinity provides movement speed and health while Bork provides gap closing and sustain. So you are better off building Trinity or BORK before wits end. And after wits end doesn't provide enough tankability to be a justified buy. So I've found myself cycling wits end out for items which provide stats I want more.

Speaking of stats what do you think is her top priority? Right now I think this is how I see it:
Movement speed (enough to properly chase)
AD
Physical penetration
Health
Attack Speed
MAX CDR is good
Sustain (enough to get through early/mid game)

So my current item priorities are buys which attempt to have those stats on them while avoiding excess or other less useful stats.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-08-2013

I honestly believe that right now there isnt really an "effective" build for her.

Increasing the aoe and spell area indirectly increases her dmg potential. So further increasing her numnbers on that part might make her a bit too strong.

So my guess would go to the extra HP or tanky bit.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
I honestly believe that right now there isnt really an "effective" build for her.


I love that comment Copper! It is spot on aswell.

She just needs too many stats right now to fill her current roll. Her damage doesn't naturally scale well so for damage you have to spend a significant number of item slots to build damage.

She has no natural CC, no stuns, crappy gap closing, and she's an auto attacker so you have to pickup some kind of movement speed and/or gap closing item to be effective in any roll.

She has very little natural tankiness so you have to pickup some tanking stats to live at all, and yet since she has no tanking stats or CC in order to tank you need a massive amount of tanking gear hp/armor/mr etc.

And one last itemization issue, she has no base sustain! So you have to itemize some early sustain.

So.... what edge does she have versus all of these gaps?

---

In essence her current kit has too many gaps to be filled by gear in order to satisfy any roll mid-late game. This has resulted in MANY fits thrown by teammates. They yell for me to build tanky before I finish my first (and often only damage item) and yet without a single damage item Shyvana is completely useless. If you don't start with a damage item with gap closing you will never finish anyone off. And she has no base sustain so you have to deal with that early.

She has to have one of the highest item demands in the game currently.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Right now, our best hope is that this Ult change is just part 1 of a series of changes that we'll be seeing as we get closer to season 4.

Quote:
IonDragonX:
You break your screen?


I wouldn't be surprised if that would really happen.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

09-08-2013

I just got back from my vacation. I am very happy to see something was done. If indeed all her abilities do get larger that would mean that Shyvana's ability to cause wide-spread damage goes up but unless her scalings go up that damage still won't be very high.

I have some testing to do now but I forsee one of two issues arising.

Issue 1
Shyvana is an easy target but lacks the actual tankyness in the form of flat HP or absurd amounts of Armor/MR.
- HP: Problem posed is that percent damage items become all that much more effective
- Armor/MR: Problem unless coupled with HP they don't do much because of how easy Penetration is to build now.

Issue 2
Shyvana doesn't deal enough damage as a large-frontliner to bully around people in a fight.

Now I have to test a fair but to actually see if there is anything true to those. They were issues before the patch. I really hope that Flamebreath get's a longer range and Cone as she ranks up Dragonform if it also used our "burning ground" suggestion that would be amazing when added to a larger Burnout it means Shyvana can create larger areas of damage around her, if that is enough damage then it really does make staying near her bad.

Well back to testing, hope to have some feedback. I am so happy to see that this thread has stayed active.

Did one game, oddly as a roaming bot-shyvana (harrasing enemy jungle and bot lane). It worked only because enemy team did badly, I was too behind to be of use. However I did notice a few things.

- Shyvana dose not leave a fire-trail during her dive as the new descriptor mentions or was supposed to.
*Currently it does not reflect the right tooltip on her Champion Page.
- Shyvana does not leave a trail of fire with Burnout. As the new descriptor implies this would scale up with her new size.
- Shyvana still is very easy to damage, especially at this new size. She needs HP or a higher Armor/MR boost to compensate for making her such an easy target.
- Flamebreath does seem to travel further however I am unsure if it's VFX or actual damage, more testing needed.

It "feels" good however I feel a bit more is needed to make it good enough. Perhaps once more testing is done by us all we can talk in-PBE chat and maybe rethink our proposal. I keep coming back to this line in her Lore:

"she cannot help but wonder if the humans are right to fear her."

I don't feel "fear" when I play or play against Shyvana. She should be a "risky engage" meaning that both playing her and against her is a risky move, as a more "all or nothing" type champion her damage should reflect that. Her Ultimate as per Dragonlines would be a rounding effect making her much more durable and dealing more area-carnage. Meaning that during her ult she should be outright avoided in direct confrontation except for other sustain strong bruisers.

Well... back to testing.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-09-2013

Look at the other transformer ultis, they all scream: Better dont fight me now !
Nasus, Renekton, Swain... Shyvana really isnt scary.

I dont really bother playing her anymore, not that my team would let me do it without reporting me for trollpicking or something like that.
Right now I stick to Sejuani/ Heca in the jungle. Both are way more effective and easier to play.

So I am more then eager to see more changes fromo Riot.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-09-2013

Quote:
Estred Shantile:
If indeed all her abilities do get larger that would mean that Shyvana's ability to cause wide-spread damage goes up but unless her scalings go up that damage still won't be very high.

FIRST let me say that I think the change to her R is either: A) a slip up and wasn't supposed to go to the PBE yet or B) entered for the purpose of testing her size ONLY without the rest of her revamped kit. I am betting that there is more to come but we might have to wait until season 4.
Quote:
Shyvana is an easy target but lacks the actual tankyness in the form of flat HP or absurd amounts of Armor/MR.

As someone else had pointed out: the Armor/MR innate passive is silly. The upcoming rework to Olaf is going to embarrassingly trump it. (he gets 10/25/40 for free unless his ult is active) Not to mention Jarvan, Taric, Thresh, etc; all of which have better passive tankiness. Therefore, I believe there are changes to be made here. I'm not going to speculate what but free health in dragon form would make sense because of her larger size. It would be fine to raise her passive armor/mr to 5+level and give her health instead of double the passive as a dragon.
Quote:
- Shyvana dose not leave a fire-trail during her dive as the new descriptor mentions or was supposed to. *Currently it does not reflect the right tooltip on her Champion Page.

Yep. This part of why I think they are testing the size change right now, without putting in the other code.
Quote:
- Shyvana does not leave a trail of fire with Burnout. As the new descriptor implies this would scale up with her new size.

I already reported this as a bug but I think it has to do with the code again and what they want to test right now. I can see the flame trail getting dropped if she is getting the huge AoE with the new size AND the napalm R. (remember that the ult will be potentially 800+140%AP damage) Note also that the size of the Burnout animation is greatly increased but the actual radius is not. It is shorter than her AA range at rank 3. Hah! I think it is a sign of things to come instead of a bug, really. It would be awesome if it granted a shield since you want to use it to fight instead of run away. Flame trail is really only useful when running . Shields are great with free resistances and don't count toward health shred effects! Imagine.
Quote:
- Flamebreath does seem to travel further however I am unsure if it's VFX or actual damage, more testing needed.
I'm pretty sure it is planned. Look here: http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/25...9-5-new-viktor (http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/25628-unofficial-pbe-patch-notes-for-9-5-new-viktor)
Quote:
Shyvana DATA\Spells\ShyvanaFireballDragonFxMissile - Range is now 650/815/975 (up from always 600/650/650)- Note: This is not the range of a base ability, but of an FX missile from an ability.

Hence, her dragonform E should have scaling range planned. The napalm effect on her E may or may not happen. If they make it a charged ability (like varus/vi Q) then I can see napalm being added to it.
Quote:
It "feels" good however I feel a bit more is needed to make it good enough.

Of course. This is why I feel we are looking at a situation. They might be spot testing her size changes only. Just like the Spellbreaker item, this new ult may be a preview of S4.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

09-09-2013

Ion, you have a certainly valid outlook there. Testing in stages certainly has been done before. I will keep running things though and trying out build-paths. I feel they are moving in a good direction but I await further changes/implements.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-09-2013

CertainlyT has poked his head into a "Shyvana QQ" thread in GD. I'll quote him here for future referance:

Quote:
CertainlyT:
We aren't making imminent changes to Shyvana's Burnout. This datamine was another piece of Season 4 fighter testing bits of which I incorrectly promoted to the PBE (as seen with Garen). The plan was to pair it with some sexy changes to her dragon form.

FWIW our internal testing on all the changes currently shows the W you saw to be a bit too weak.

As to our overall view of Shyvana, I think she's balanced but her Dragon Form doeesn't feel sufficienly epic. I want Shyvana to be a bully, but a more moderate one early, in exchange for a lvl 16 dragon form where she becomes a literal raid boss, turning the enemy backline into a pile of charred corpses. Rez and run back.

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Testing a bunch of stuff. Nothing has proven perfect just yet. Shyvana will stay damage focused, but I think that she needs a) greater reach and b) a better best cast scenario in post-35 minute team fights.

Quote:
CertainlyT:
I'm not actually certain the W will see changes. Again, this was just a random daily iteration you got a peek of.

Quote:
CertainlyT:
Quote:
PallasAthens;41397250:
Yeah but unless you're buffing her base stats and ultimate stats she'll never be this. With CC everyone will go 'haha worthless' and run by her.

Have faith.

So I'm pretty much right about both the testing and the accidental changes on the PBE right now. Also, we are right in assuming that Shyvana is not in the right spot atm. There will be changes for the better in Season 4, apparently.