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[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Pics are up now.

Quote:
IonDragonX:
basic shy:
774813
rank 1 dragon:
774810
rank 2 dragon:
774811
rank 3 dragon:
774812
compare to Max Cho:
774825

Quote:
Shrouded Snake:
I'll be frank. That's actually rather clever on Riot's part. Sure, we've asked for better attack range in dragonform (which we got) but to actually make Shyv bigger than a fed Cho'Gath... It can see it now.
Battlecast Shyvana and Battlecast Cho'Gath as your frontline. Scary.

Would be fun but Battlecast Shy would break the pattern of the BC theme. Shyvana is not evil enough and is in human form too much. (all the BC skins looks monstrous 100% of the time, so no transforming champs)


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
IonDragonX:
rank 3 dragon:
774812

This is an example of when you eat your balanced 3 square meals per day

Quote:
IonDragonX:
compare to Max Cho:
774825

And this is what happens when you eat just about anything simply because you can.

Okay. Maybe BC Shyvana is a no go but you can't deny the meat wall a fed Cho and super-sized Shyvana can create


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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-06-2013

I know the siza alone doesnt give her anything besides beeing awesome and easy to hit... but cmon !
It just looks so cool.

If her actual AOE zones would grow together with her dragon size (including her melee range) I think that would make it way easier to do the job she was made for: AOE dmg in teamfights.

Why didnt we think of that ? ^^
That and maybe a slight change in her dmg scaling and voila !


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-06-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
I know the siza alone doesnt give her anything besides beeing awesome and easy to hit... but cmon! It just looks so cool. If her actual AOE zones would grow together with her dragon size (including her melee range) I think that would make it way easier to do the job she was made for: AOE dmg in teamfights.

1) The larger ring around Shy in the pics I posed show her larger AA range. The smaller ring is her hitbox. So, it DOES do something other than being awesome and easy to hit. Her Q is dependent on her AA range, so this is an increased range on Q as well.
2) I think that her aoe on her W/E will get wider/longer, just not right now. (work in progress kinda thing) I think this is the direction they want to go. The animation of her W is already X% bigger, it just doesn't have the larger range coded.

I think that she is just up in the air atm, but it looks like she is not forgotten.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-07-2013

To be honest I didnt expected such a smart solution for her design problem from Riot ^^

Simply increasing her AOE effects is almost stupid easy as a solution.
Maybe her only remaining problem is that her design screams: AOE for TF.
And TF happen when ? Yes, lategame. So from a logical p.o.v. she should have her dmg scaling oriented into that direction.

If they attend that problem a bit she might be real fun to play again.
And so darn scary when big. ^^ Although I expect her to be scaled down again.

By the way: Right now I pick Shyvana only against junglers like amumu or nasus. + a 1/29/0 full tank build.
Going Wriggles 1st and concentrating on CJ and beeing tanky as hell. You can switch wriggles later for a Botrk but early to mid that is just too expensive. Better go for Mallet or sunfire for extra tankyness.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Hurray hurray the lovely developers have listened to our plea!

I like this new and unique direction they have picked! If her size increases as she levels and the range and AE effect of her abilities and AA increase this would stand to fix many of her problems (along with a fundamentally better working ultimate cast design).

With the builds I'm running now if she has more range and better ability to hit with her abilities I think that might be enough to allow her to fill the unique roll of a damage/tank who is fearsome enough to fill the teams needs.

I still am somewhat concerned that she might not have enough raw scaling late level though. Again I wish she would get some innate hybrid penetration onhit (stacking onhit or simply passive). This would likely be a simple fix to her scaling damage issues.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Katrisa:
Hurray hurray the lovely developers have listened to our plea!

I like this new and unique direction they have picked! If her size increases as she levels and the range and AE effect of her abilities and AA increase this would stand to fix many of her problems (along with a fundamentally better working ultimate cast design).

With the builds I'm running now if she has more range and better ability to hit with her abilities I think that might be enough to allow her to fill the unique roll of a damage/tank who is fearsome enough to fill the teams needs.

I still am somewhat concerned that she might not have enough raw scaling late level though. Again I wish she would get some innate hybrid penetration onhit (stacking onhit or simply passive). This would likely be a simple fix to her scaling damage issues.


I'm pretty sure the reds looked at this thread and the chat one. They just didn't a word but that also means they know we aren't keen on Shyv's damage scaling at the moment. They might do something about Shyv's late game damage but there is also a little voice in the back of my head telling me :

"How would these new sizes + the new Trinity affect gameplay." Imagine being a big @$$ dragon, bigger than anything else in the game (save for Baron and Nautilus perhaps) with those phage and sheen procs while still maintaining her human form hitbox.

Even without taking Trinity into consideration, enemy melee would have to be balls deep into Shyvana's zone of effectiveness (as i like to word it) and getting out alive won't be so easy due to the increased range.

For that matter, what would happen if Lulu jumbo sized you?


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Shrouded Snake:
"How would these new sizes + the new Trinity affect gameplay." Imagine being a big @$$ dragon, bigger than anything else in the game (save for Baron and Nautilus perhaps) with those phage and sheen procs while still maintaining her human form hitbox.


Damage thoughts:

You're not wrong Snake. The question might be, given these changes how would we build her? One issue would continue to be that she has hybrid damage that initially scales well with CDR and attack speed. But after either/both are maxed and enemy armor/magic resistance start growing Shyvana's damage stops scaling.

So the issue is for her damage to scale she either needs some innate hybrid penetration, item based penetration or penetration from your runes/masteries. Another difficulty is she has to have some additional runspeed in her rune/mastery build. Either runspeed quints and/or full utility tree. If you build Trinity or Zepher you can get away with only having one of these. If you don't build Trinity or Zepher then you really need the runspeed from both.

The issue is if you pickup full utility you can't have hybrid mastery penetration and the rune based penetration gives less bang for your buck. So from my experience in building her you are better off running standard AD/Armor runes with runspeed quints and cooldown glyphs. This allows you to go full offensive with some defensive.

With this approach you then do the following. In offensive you either go hybrid penetration and focus on maxing CDR first. OR you go full physical penetration and focus on finishing trinity and then a brutalizer. From practical experience I have observed the best damage with the new trinity + brutalizer/black cleaver with physical penetration masteries.

So with the changes they are proposing how will this change the current strategy of damage scaling? Hybrid penetration + max CDR vs physical penetration with more AD and physical penetration items?


Tanking thoughts:

The changes will make Shyvana as you stated, better capable of maintaining AA range and ability range in theory. Which is all good and something she would need. It will also might her easier to target and possibly easier to CC. So it might make her current CC problems worse (ouch). Also if she's a bigger target she will probably be targeted more by players. So if they don't increase her health or ability to tank in any way (like Cho's bonus health) then she is just going to die faster.

So while she will get some benefits that I would love, some of her current problems might be exacerbated. Specifically the issue of her mediocre tanking and her lack of CC protection.

My thoughts are that if she is growing in size and range, she is effectively being pushed toward and aggressive AE tank roll (which is a good roll for her and if done right could assist many different compositions). But to fill this roll she will need some enhancement that innately makes her more tanky, and I don't think her passive cuts it. And with no innate CC, her current ability set still pleads for some kind of cc resistance.


Toplane thoughts:

Also none of this actually fixes her damage scaling, it just helps her maintain AA and ability range which primarily helps her do better team AE damage and finish off fleeing enemies. These changes won't improve her toplane game, or her one vs one duals. And while she is a good early dualist, she often is a mediocre late game dualist flat out loosing against better AA and AD scaling characters like Renek, Zed, Jax, Riven, Trundle, Darius, etc.


Summary:

With all of this said, I understand she can't do it all. So I think if Riot continues this direction of enlarging Shyvana's size, reach, and improving her ultimate. I think my further request would be toward a health bonus with each size increase, and some kind of CC resistance. Maybe something like after casting her ultimate Shyvana breaks through the first CC effect that hits her within 5 seconds? Assuming that she had proper reach, better tanking and some ability to resist CC I could see myself playing an AE tank for my ranked teams and truly fulfilling a roll from start of game till finish.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Katrisa:
-Snip-


Then where are we going to squeeze in the extra hp or tenacity? It won't be the ult since Riot didn't put it in there and I'm pretty sure they are aware of the risks of being a big target.

If I had to guess, I would put it in the passive. Scrap the Bonus Armor and MR and do something like this. Shyvana gain 50+ (Level*25) health. This bonus is doubled in dragon form. That's 500 in human and 1000 in dragon. That's a free Warmog right there.

Or Shyvana gain 5/7.5/10/12.5% Tenacity. This bonus stacks with other tenacity effect and are doubled in dragon form. Scratch that, This will actually nerf her early jungle performance.

Can't exactly go for break slows upon activation method. That's Garen's, Evelynn's and Yi's domain.


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Shrouded Snake:
For that matter, what would happen if Lulu jumbo sized you?

You break your screen?