Welcome to the Forum Archive!

Years of conversation fill a ton of digital pages, and we've kept all of it accessible to browse or copy over. Whether you're looking for reveal articles for older champions, or the first time that Rammus rolled into an "OK" thread, or anything in between, you can find it here. When you're finished, check out the boards to join in the latest League of Legends discussions.

GO TO BOARDS


[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IonDragonX

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Katrisa:
I'm simply pointing out that her knockback is basically no CC, it doesn't push far, it doesn't popup, it doesn't stun. It can interrupt IF it works (often it just fails to activate).

So she is essentially a CCless champion, she has no CC resistance, no invulnerability or dodge, and no tanky cooldowns. She is in effect a pure damage champion by design. Despite this she does NOT do damage like a pure damage champion should. Many champions easily outdamage her late game and some outdamage her early game.

So why exactly is this? If she is pure damage and doesn't effectively do the appropriate damage for a such a roll... then what the heck is her roll?

Shyvana currently is a champion with no roll IMO. Consequently it makes her easy to replace with many better and stronger options, top or in the jungle. Shyvana is in essence a design failure in her current form. If you win a Shyvana its unlikely you won because you choose and used Shyvana. You would have probably done better (and increased your chances of winning) had you chosen a top/jungle with a better kit and ability to full-fill the teams needed roll.


I'm inclined to agree with Katrisa's assessment of Shyvana's situation.

It doesn't really bother me that she gets no CC. What does bother me is that she gets nothing in return for that lack. I still think the ways to fix this would be one of these:
A) She gets free Tenacity or something. (I still think it would be cool to be immune/super resistant to forced actions)
B) She gets more end game damage.
C) She gets some kind of CC. I'd prefer that to be on her dragon form only, tho. (Katrisa has already stated why the current ult doesn't count)

While we are talking about what we'd like from her as a champ, I feel that her dragon form needs more changes away from Riot's direction. Basically, Riot wanted the exact same kit but with more free stats and wider area of effect. That is pretty lame, IMO. All the form-changing champs are going from ranged to melee. (I'm not considering the size buff ults) It might be good to consider doing that for dragon form.

Ranged Dragon Form
325 increased range, new total is 450 - the missiles look like (jungle) Dragon's firebolt
Q) Still does a cone shaped melee AoE attack, (which is smaller than her new range, btw) but instantly with no target. This allows her to effectively extend her melee range to the end of the cone.
W) Burnout no longer leaves a trail, but gives herself a heal over time. (like Rengar heal)
E) Now is a charged attack like Varus's Q, but allows her to flame a wider area the longer she holds it, It starts under her cursor then moves along a line, like Viktor's Death Ray or Rumble's Equalizer. The line length is always the same, but it gets wider if she charges. The entire area that she flames will be lit for five seconds, just like her current W.

Anyway, I feel that this would make her much more dragon-like and feel sooooo much better as a design.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Its an idea, although from what I associate with it in my head, I think I'd prefer the void zone version. But I can see what you are trying to do with her.

This new design might be an interesting idea for a new dragon champ. Just a dragon whelp on LV1 and growing to a big 4 legged dragon later. Not one of those skinny dragons, a big heavy walker. ^^

Maybe the dmg on her Q could be changed into another direction, so that it relates to E or HP more ?
So instead of only AD it would relate to her E again ?... Hmm... That might make the design to dependant on scaling her E though.

The reason why I like the zoning version so much is, because it is a better version of her initial design: Doing AOE dmg in TF. She was never really good with it (Renekton could maybe outdmg her with his AOE, while beeing harder to kill) The new design does more dmg and makes it easier to apply. Actually this idea of zone isnt new, Lux,Ziggs, Cassio... there some with simillar zones already. But focussing her control on this is a very unique idea.

I hope after the last Patch Riot starts to finally pick up some of our ideas. They take sooooo long.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-23-2013

I hope so, by the way if possible I would like to add some of you to Live servers. Granted we can't all be Shyvana but I play multiple rolls. Would love to start branching out.

I have always loved the idea of an evolving dragon champion. As Copperpoint just pointed out. I would love to start as a Wyrmling and end up a Wyrm (flying if possible). It would be very fun and I suppose you could use Kha'Zix's eveolution mechanic for powering up such a champion. Except it would be based on the "age" stages of a Dragon. Granted being Age it would have to be a passive ability.

- At level 6 said champion grows into a Drake (young dragon). Gaining a more powerful Flamebreath.
- At level 11 said champion grows again into an adolescent dragon. Gaining more powerful melee strikes.
- At level 16 said champion grows into an adult dragon. Gaining flight and farther jump range.

I dunno I am just spitballing here but the focus still here is Shyvana. I was doing more kit comparisons and most "viable" bruisers have moderate damage, sustain and crowd control.

Shyvana does have moderate damage but it's a bit weaker than most bruisers. She does not have sustain. She does not have CC (her ult doesn't count). Almost nothing in her kit benefits her in much of anything even 2v1's where her Dragon-AE would help she just doesn't have the sustain/tankyness to deal with it in almost all situations. To compensate for that she needs to be a tanky-mobility champion with high damage. Make getting caught by her a punishment. Like Rengar, you don't want to be caught alone by him or Kha.

Make us fear the dragon again.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

copperpoint

Senior Member

08-24-2013

A quote from Ricklessabandon:

Quote:
as for shyvana, i believe scarizard made some changes to her somewhat recently so he'd likely be the first to dive into a shyvana discussion (since he'd be more likely to look for threads about her). he's recently been focusing on rengar, so that might explain why it feels like 'silence' regarding shyvana. i'll poke him the next time i see him and see how he feels about his changes and her current state.


Source: 3rd post
http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=40986648&posted=1#post40986648


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Ailwuful2

Senior Member

08-24-2013

This is from someone that also loves Shyvanna and played her a lot during season 2 as a top laner (she carried me a lot of elo increase).

These changes you present does not look to me like a rework as much as it looks like plain buffing her. Her tankiness isn't low, nor is her damage, that's for sure. But she doesn't bring the CC+damage that other champions can bring, like Lee Sin. Problems with champions that pack little CC is that they consequentially need gold to work well, which is where many junglers fall to being not viable. Having more gold in her hands, she is golden, as far as damage goes.

I wouldn't mind her having more late game mobility though.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

IonDragonX

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
A quote from Ricklessabandon:
Quote:
ricklessabandon;40986341:
i just happened to see this suggestion, it was easy and quick to implement, it doesn't require the standard research/analysis that a lot of our game balance changes need, and it's a very positive change. essentially, this change was super free.

as for shyvana, i believe scarizard made some changes to her somewhat recently so he'd likely be the first to dive into a shyvana discussion (since he'd be more likely to look for threads about her). he's recently been focusing on rengar, so that might explain why it feels like 'silence' regarding shyvana. i'll poke him the next time i see him and see how he feels about his changes and her current state.

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=40986648&posted=1#post40986648

Why do I hear Professor Farnsworth in my head??


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-24-2013

Quote:
Ailwuful2:
This is from someone that also loves Shyvanna and played her a lot during season 2 as a top laner (she carried me a lot of elo increase).

These changes you present does not look to me like a rework as much as it looks like plain buffing her. Her tankiness isn't low, nor is her damage, that's for sure. But she doesn't bring the CC+damage that other champions can bring, like Lee Sin. Problems with champions that pack little CC is that they consequentially need gold to work well, which is where many junglers fall to being not viable. Having more gold in her hands, she is golden, as far as damage goes.

I wouldn't mind her having more late game mobility though.

We weren't aiming at overall adjusting her kit too much other than to focus more on her design (auto-attack based chasing champion). The biggest issue was later game scalings which is what we focused the most on. Belive it or not the base values of Burnout and Flamebreath both were reduced. She builds better in this set up and opens a few more options.

I would counter that having gold does anything. I and other Shyvana players have gone 8/1/6 or 14/0/2 in a game by mid-game and still fell off because we can't push the advantage, unlike other Top/Bruisers. Usually to get that fed as Shyvana your team is failing lanes. This rework basically fixes her scaling issue and addresses her mobility issues.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DreamEaters

Senior Member

08-25-2013

I don't understand why "cinders" DOT was added to her flame breath ability, not her burnout. the hitbox is really tiny if you think about it.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-26-2013

Quote:
IS18e3cfd8c51f16bd8aa97:
I don't understand why "cinders" DOT was added to her flame breath ability, not her burnout. the hitbox is really tiny if you think about it.

Are you talking in our suggestion or on Live?

If you are talking about on Live it was just a change in how Flamebreath's passive worked.

Before it shredded 15% Armor and dealt 15% (I think) of Flamebreaths original damage per hit. Now it just deals 2% of Maximum Health in Magic Damage on hit.

If you are talking our Suggestion for her. It just makes the damage scale better to late game as enemies get more bursty. We also made Flamebreath create damage-zones so she has a bit more utility on the map.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-28-2013

I reworded a few things in the proposal to have a better meaning as to what they are achieving. The format on Flamebreath has been changed to reflect what aspects are being modified. Her passive has been reworded to reflect the shred and benefits better.