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[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
The ulti and how good it should be as an initiation tool is somethig I would like to leave to Riot.
I think the added stun gives her enough of an edge for ganks and 2nd initioations.
She just doesnt offer anything a real tank would offer.

The MS, is very dependant on testing. I would like it to go into our direction, and focus it more on long term dmg and mobility then it is now.

Riot, please write a response, this topic is very important to all of us.

Aye I have noted the above idea in the main proposal under a change-log. Testing would be required to see if my suspicions about the possible "too much" of 60% Movement at rank 5 is correct.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

08-19-2013

You know i sat down and thought about it. Her lack of CC by should mean that she should generally feel overpowered compared to other champions with CC.

What I don't understand is why she isn't. How exactly did this fail in the first place? You make a champion who has no CC... and you don't design her to do proportionally more damage? (HUH?)

I think this is clear failure in her current design. Riot needs to buck up and admit this. She has no CC, no tanking cooldowns, and no CC resistance. With none of these she should do ROLFS damage from the start and till end of a game. Because that is fundamentally ALL she can do.

Make it so Riot.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Katrisa:
You know i sat down and thought about it. Her lack of CC by should mean that she should generally feel overpowered compared to other champions with CC.

What I don't understand is why she isn't. How exactly did this fail in the first place? You make a champion who has no CC... and you don't design her to do proportionally more damage? (HUH?)

I think this is clear failure in her current design. Riot needs to buck up and admit this. She has no CC, no tanking cooldowns, and no CC resistance. With none of these she should do ROLFS damage from the start and till end of a game. Because that is fundamentally ALL she can do.

Make it so Riot.


If we're going to take the No CC approach, We'll have to compare to some degree Shyvana with the CC-less champs.

Katarina, Ezreal, Corki, Fiora, Mordekaiser, Master Yi, Sivir, Nidalee and the upcoming champ Lucian

Besides, Shyvana isn't a cc-less champ. There is the push with the ultimate it's just it's really hard to use unless the target is literally next to you which everyone will go out of their way to avoid.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-19-2013

Quote:
Shrouded Snake:
If we're going to take the No CC approach, We'll have to compare to some degree Shyvana with the CC-less champs.

Katarina, Ezreal, Corki, Fiora, Mordekaiser, Master Yi, Sivir, Nidalee and the upcoming champ Lucian

Besides, Shyvana isn't a cc-less champ. There is the push with the ultimate it's just it's really hard to use unless the target is literally next to you which everyone will go out of their way to avoid.

You can almost play out that she has a knock on her ult due to how small it is and how hard it is to for anything but flying out of the jungle. Though to continue your comparison. That is partly why she gains tankyness while in combat. It's to keep her in longer and allow her to use the Zoning potential she would get from the new Flamebreath. Which I feel would be satisfying to Shyvana players to use. It isn't overpowering as good positioning counters that. Skill should always be something to counter a champion.

Right now Shyvana has a somewhat scary early game if you 1v1 her. A strong mid-game and a weak Late-Game compared to most other bruisers in the game. This rework has her strong through all phases because she lacks CC. A CC champ with good scaling and innate damage/tank ability would be quite powerful if not overpowered. However Shyv's lack of that CC makes her much easier to deal with. Basically the rework doesn't "solve" anything other than consistency for the Shyvana Player and a better Late-Scaling to be more viable. Early/Mid champs aren't usually picked much because Defensive Playing ruins those champions.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

08-20-2013

Indeed, and IF you go for a strong early champ you would need someone like Pantheon. With his haress pokes he can actually make use of his strength.
All Shyvana does is walk around and waiting for the enemy to make a mistake, not cc her, not outdamaging her not outsustaining her.... you get the point. ^^

I desperately hope Riot accepts this design and adds it to her kit.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Well, even with these changes there are still stronger early-game champions than Shyvana. She would have a presence through the game with these changes but not be particularly "best" at any given point.

Early game some champions are stronger than her still and can probably 1 v 1 her still.
Mid-Game there are more bursty champions who can take advantage of CC to burst her down or deny her out of a teamfight before she gets too tanky.
Late-Game though is where she will now be more reliant on good movement skill and control to be viable. Rather than just weak flat and simple. The change here really makes her a very (and I do mean very) strong Duelist but not as strong as Fiora who IS a duelist

That's why I like this kit-rework. It builds on what she does and fills in gaps where needed. Overall though it's not a huge rework or buff meaning it's up to the players to learn how to use this build to it's fullest and not just blow away competition with numbers.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

08-21-2013

I'm simply pointing out that her knockback is basically no CC, it doesn't push far, it doesn't popup, it doesn't stun. It can interrupt IF it works (often it just fails to activate).

So she is essentially a CCless champion, she has no CC resistance, no invulnerability or dodge, and no tanky cooldowns. She is in effect a pure damage champion by design. Despite this she does NOT do damage like a pure damage champion should. Many champions easily outdamage her late game and some outdamage her early game.

So why exactly is this? If she is pure damage and doesn't effectively do the appropriate damage for a such a roll... then what the heck is her roll?

Shyvana currently is a champion with no roll IMO. Consequently it makes her easy to replace with many better and stronger options, top or in the jungle. Shyvana is in essence a design failure in her current form. If you win a Shyvana its unlikely you won because you choose and used Shyvana. You would have probably done better (and increased your chances of winning) had you chosen a top/jungle with a better kit and ability to full-fill the teams needed roll.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Well we had worked on making her more pure-damage by incraeasing Twin Bite to scale to 125% of AD for the 2nd attack but I think you and Shrouded pointed out that may be too high due to it's a reset meaning that would be a 2.25 AD ratio.

I feel you are right in that she has no real roll. I hope Zone-Control in dragonform would provide that roll in a teamfight while the shred-passive would make her much more a duelist in the jungle which plays to her counterjungling.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Estred Shantile:
Well we had worked on making her more pure-damage by incraeasing Twin Bite to scale to 125% of AD for the 2nd attack but I think you and Shrouded pointed out that may be too high due to it's a reset meaning that would be a 2.25 AD ratio.

I feel you are right in that she has no real roll. I hope Zone-Control in dragonform would provide that roll in a teamfight while the shred-passive would make her much more a duelist in the jungle which plays to her counterjungling.


The main reason why I'm hesitant on changing twin bite is because it double procs on-hit effects. With max cdr and the -0.5sec/AA, you could reset Twin bite in about 2 or 3 seconds. Combine that with the proposed scaling on timbers, that is quite a bit of damage.

In essence, Twin bite is the LAST thing about Shyvana that need to be changed because we, the player base, never really had any complaints on how it works.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Shrouded, that is pretty much how I felt about it. Unless it shows that she needs higher burst's of damage I wouldn't really touch Twin Bite either. I the more situations I run though my head the more fun applications I see for the idea of Zone control. I was thinking maybe it could be extnded to Human form.

Leaves a trail of burning ground where Flamebreath passes (very narrow in Human Form). Deals 50% of the ability damage a second and lasts for 2.5 seconds (half the duration of Dragonforms Flamebreath).

It makes small zones in Humanform which can be used to her advantage without introducing anything else to her kit and also makes her Humanform have a bit of ability to trade.