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[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

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Katrisa

Senior Member

08-16-2013

She is good at counter jungling and taking early towers. Both of which shorten the laning phase. So she literally accelerates the game out of the phase which she performs best in (face slap).

I've talked about this before. But most of the games I win as Shyvana are early surrenders. Where I snowball the game early causing early pressure, triggering disorganization, and low moral on the enemy team. Teams who are more organized and realize surrendering early is somewhat foolish can often make large comebacks outside of the laning phase (especially if Shyvana herself is holding most of the kills). Unfortunately due to her chase design, she naturally gets many of the gank kills (since she is the one chasing and finishing enemies off). This can become a huge late game problem as Shyvana doesn't scale well late game, and she is overly easily countered in late game play by using team CC and pinning her down before she can engage.

All of these issues are due to serious limitations in her design, many of which invite counter play but don't provide Shyvana players with any ability to counter play themselves (which is ridiculous).

To fix these problems she needs hybrid penetration for late game scaling, she needs to be a little bit more tanky, she needs CC resistance/delay when diving with her ultimate, and she could benefit from a static speed boost rather than the strange diminishing boost she has now. The changes proposed would make Shyvana stronger late game, but should still provide enough counter play to encourage players to play smart, poke her down, slow her, root her, but not fight her head on. She should win most head on fights early AND late game. Currently this just isn't true. She looses head on fights to way too many opponents (late game) and some early game. For a character with NO sustain, no CC and NO low cooldown dives this is a sad place to be.

Shyvanas design should be such that she is the all in, nothing left to loose kill or be killed half dragon. And right now, this isn't even close to true. She invokes no fear from opponents, and is laughed at in the team lineup screens. This is not acceptable.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-16-2013

That is what I think is so good about this proposal. She has better more consistent movement and scaling for her damage. She also has built-in Hybrid Shred which she sorely lacks and cannot itemize for. It opens up her build options by fixing part of her fatal flaw within her own kit. With the Jungle changes coming for Season 4 these changes are designed to not be so hyper-sensitive towards item/jungle changes.

For example BoRK which is now a core item of her. The increased cooldown and reduction of the slow range were both harder hits to her than anyone else because of how much she relied on that slow to chase.


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hey what the fuc

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Your kit looks as boring as the old. Riot tried to make her into a psuedo-magnus with cleave and an awful version of skewer as her ultimate. Just get rid of dragon breath and all this ridiculous %hp damage, it's boring and pointless. Give her rp without the stun as her e. Sucks in then breaths fire that shreds armor or something useful that synergizes with her role as a cleaver. Make her ultimate actually act as skewer does so she doesn't just end up jumping past everyone she dragged halfway.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

08-16-2013

You're not completely wrong. In that the way her ultimate currently dives should just fundamentally be redesigned. The problem is how do you make it different than the horde of popup based ones we currently have?

I would prefer something which functions such that where she lands it causes a fiery burning crater (same damage as currently but larger area effect) and rather than applying a pushback it applies a slow to everyone inside of the area with an instantaneous popup (like Quinns instant popup on her dive attack). This way Shyvana still doesn't have much CC, but her ultimates landing actually feels like an ultimate... and not just a dumb dive which doesn't do anything visually or in effect.

Outside of an addition like this... I do think the proposed changes are better. The reason Shyvan's kit feels so boring right now is because very little of her kit has OOMF. Nothing hits "hard" and now she has no shred. So shes almost like a normal jungler with CC pounding on someone... making her entirely less effective than most choices. The new kit should make her hit hard when she should, and continue hitting hard late game.


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hey what the fuc

Senior Member

08-16-2013

She gets to double dip cleave, that's what makes her interesting. The only problem with her kit is how pushback on her ult works (it should drag someone the entire distance of the ult and have a more forgiving hitbox) and she should have a suck in ability (similar to diana e but no slow and more pull) so she can combo it with her ult (basically a reverse magnus) to augment her place as the best physical aoe champ with initiation power.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Well the goal of this proposition was a change that would help what she has now in S3. There are planned changes for Jungle in S4 which will again effect her. She was built as a bruiser but not as an initiator. They tried dragging there target with her ult. It was removed after testing in PBE. At least a stun radius helps her initiation. We tried to stay away from changing more than one entire part of her kit. The biggest change her is Burnout and at least Flamebreath now builds with something Shyvana can use.

You aren't wrong that she still has glaring flaws this rework does not address, such as the functionality of her Ult as an initiation which I don't think it was meant to be.

The goal was to alleviate issues in current gameplay without making sweeping changes to functionality. We as players don't know exactly what Riot has planned. To that effect we tried to do more QoL work with her skills that makes playing her more straightforward and fun for the roll she is supposed to fill. Which I and other feel is
- Aggressive Counterjungling and map presence
- Tanky-Damage with Zone control in a Teamfight

That is what this rework does, it also gives her zoning control, which in a way is it's on form of CC through damage. The probably biggest things that help her scaling here are the Shred Passive and the HP-scaling coupled with 3% damage on Flamebreath. (She can hit 3 times in under a second for 9% Health in Magic. With Resists that's still 4.5% against most targets).


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hey what the fuc

Senior Member

08-17-2013

I absolutely think dragon form was meant to be an initiation tool to synergize with her q and her aoe armor shred (which is now gone rip). In theory it's a great idea but in execution it turned out really bland and awful because of her complete lack of cc, how generally bad her short duration long cooldown movespeed increase is in a game inundated with slows (and lack of meaningful item actives like blink dagger, force staff or shadow blade) and the clunkiness of her ult. Here's what I want a fed Shyvana to look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNA3C4s1a4o

Her lack of a clearly defined role beyond "tanky dps" is what's hurting her viability. Many champions do tanky dps much better than she does while bringing utility.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Quote:
hey what the fuc:
I absolutely think dragon form was meant to be an initiation tool to synergize with her q and her aoe armor shred (which is now gone rip). In theory it's a great idea but in execution it turned out really bland and awful because of her complete lack of cc, how generally bad her short duration long cooldown movespeed increase is in a game inundated with slows (and lack of meaningful item actives like blink dagger, force staff or shadow blade) and the clunkiness of her ult. Here's what I want a fed Shyvana to look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNA3C4s1a4o

Her lack of a clearly defined role beyond "tanky dps" is what's hurting her viability. Many champions do tanky dps much better than she does while bringing utility.

Well CC isn't in her design. That we have from Riot. So that leaves only 2 methods of dealing damage comparable to utility-bruisers.

She has to be as tanky if not tankyer with fewer tank items thus allowing more DPS building.
She has to have something to allow her to initiate (Delayed CC on her Ult-Dive helps that).
She has to have something to split a team up after initiating. Which the new Flamebreath does by creating a large region of damage when combined with Burnout she can lay down a large area of damage. When played right this version of Shyv could jump in and fully stack her passive (80 Armor and MR) within 2 seconds by a well placed Twin Bite. From there she does what she already does percent based damage, except now its 3% per auto-attack and 2% if they stay in the fire-fields created by Burnout. Add in BoRK or Laindry's (Or both) and you have a lot of percent damage from one source.

I understand where you are coming from wanting her to be an initiator but I feel that this rework actually achieves that through non-standard means. The only thing I could see adding to this kit rework is an HP buff to Dragonform to reflect her resiliance without using Tenacity, Damage Reduction or Regeneration effects.

Perhaps add 100/200/300 HP in Dragonform based on rank? With Flamebreath based on 5% Max HP a normal Shyvanan (no HP items) will have 2445 HP in Dragonform which is a 272 damage Flamebreath and the Field it leaves deals 136 damage every second for 5 seconds. So let's examine a supposed Shyvana build.

Blade of the Ruined King
Boots (Any)
Warmogs
Iceborn Gauntlet
Maw of Malmortus
Spirit Visage

HP: 2145(Base) + 1000(Warmogs)+ 400 (Spirit) = 3545
Armor: 18(Base) + 60(Levels) + 20(Passive) + 70 (Gauntlet) + 20(Shred Passive) = 188
Magic Resist: 30(Base) + 22(Levels) + 20(Passive) + 55 (Visage) + 40(Maw) + 20 (Shred Passive) = 187
Attack Speed: Approximately 1.5
Attack Damage: 55(base) + 61(Levels) + 25(BoRK) + 60(Maw) = 201

Damage After Ratios
Twin Bite: 402
Burnout: 482
Flamebreath: 327
Dragonform: 342 (15 damage from her ults HP)

Dragonform HP: 3845
Dragonform Armor Non-Stacked: 188
Dragonform Armor Stacked: 228
Dragonfrom MR Non-Stacked: 187
Dragonform MR Stacked: 227

*Granted this is a pretty tank-item build.
From that math I may suggest only her passive bonus doubles in Dragonform, not her Shred Bonus (Meaning her Armor/MR in this build would be 208/207 respectively).


Factor in a 1.5 Attack Speed with 3% Magic Burn and 5% Physical burn. Her Shredding passive reducing her targets resists which helps her percent based damage. Then add the 2% burn from Burnout's Field and 163 Damage/Second from Flamebreath's Fire Field. You have a zoning-bruiser that can stick on a target and burn them down.


I think this kit rework places her right where she needs. Open kit builds that can provide counterplay by Shyvana towards her enemies. No super-buffs that prevent counterplay against Shyvana. An overall kit improvement that makes her have better map presence without flat buffing her numbers. Basically this rework makes her have a prescience through the whole game. Differnt kinds of pressure based on how the player actually plays. That is what I want from Shyvana and I feel wholly that this rework places her at a viable power level without being overpowered and also does not steal the roll of other champions. There will be better tanks and initiators than Shyvana and also Damage-Bruisers of different types than her.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-18-2013

Also I was doing more crunching with the proposition at 60% Movement for up to 8 seconds on Burnout and realizing it may have her moving too fast late-game. I had thought of reintroducing Decay but with caps on how low it can fall.

So burnout could work like this.

Burnout
Duration: 5 Seconds
Base Movement Bonus: 10%
Bonus Movement Percent(Active): 0 / 12.5 / 25 / 37.5 / 50
Decay Rate(Percent): 0 / 1.85 / 3.7 / 5.6 / 7.5
Minimum Speed: 10 / 13.25 / 16.5 / 19.5 / 22.5
Extended Duration: 3 seconds

I think that may be more balanced overall.
- Rank one being passive grants more map mobility for her Counter-Jungle Style of play making it a bit safer for her but still quite the risk.
- Rank 2 doubles her movement bonus when active for ganks.
- The decay soft-cap prevents it from decaying much beyond 50% keeping her mobile but not overly mobile.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

08-18-2013

The ulti and how good it should be as an initiation tool is somethig I would like to leave to Riot.
I think the added stun gives her enough of an edge for ganks and 2nd initioations.
She just doesnt offer anything a real tank would offer.

The MS, is very dependant on testing. I would like it to go into our direction, and focus it more on long term dmg and mobility then it is now.

Riot, please write a response, this topic is very important to all of us.