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[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-13-2013

She has a very greyish skin, with a slight blue note. In such a strong fire light that would easily turn into a greyish orange or yellow color.
Glad you all like it, maybe I get Riot to use it. Would be great.

MS: So we go with the usual max MS supp build+ quints and go for a zeal. (2 if you go for Phantom dancer)

So a finnished build could look like this:
Botrk, Trinity, Phantom dancer, Visage, Omen--- and something else. GA is always good. Frozen mallet for HP... I doubt that I would ever reach that point.

Currently I am playing a lot of other champs and to be honest, I only loose when I play Shyvana.
Sejuani, Leone, chogath, Garen... They are all so much saver to go with as they cans directly or indirectly carry a game. Ok, Garen and Leo have a hard time on that but they are still good.

So I think I will be working myself up to gold, befor I go back to more Shyvana. ^^


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-13-2013

I just hit Gold III today running Shyvana. Lots of toplane slots against a number of different opponents. Exhaust and Ignite is definitely the way to go running her toplane. And Hydra is rather good in the lane. But once laning ends you need the extra speed from something else and Trinity is ultimately a better item on her right now.

I find this rather annoying. But anyway I'm finding most matchups doable toplane if I run full offensive with some defensive. The fact that I only find this workable when I have both Exhaust and Ignite says something though. Again it shows that she's got some serrious deficiencies. I do think Riot is mostly right in that if they were to roll these defficiencies into her ultimate it would be a great way to buff her. They wouldn't have to alter her play much outside of her ultimate.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

09-13-2013

How fast are you pushing Hyrda and what do you start on top lane? I just had a successful game using Doran's Shield because it + the masteries is -13 damage from Champion Attacks and -2 from minions meaning you can very easily trade.

I think that Riot is approaching it right by pushing up her ultimate. This is both on-par with other Form Change Ultimates and helps her deficiency in a Teamfight. Even our Proposistion was mostly Ult Changes. Outside of that the largest one was cutting Flamebreath's damage in half and making it scale off Max HP.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Generally when I used to top lane I would start with a doran's and push for a kill. But back then I was running flash/ignite or flash/cleanse with the idea being that I would out-tank them and just squat top till I could take the tower.

Since then I've taken a much more offensive approach as I noted. So consequently I usually start with two rejuv beads and three pots (or a pot and a ward). From there typically I get Tiamat on first or second back. And Hydra on third or forth back. Once I have Tiamat I usually start taking the wolfs/golems from our jungle (or their jungle if I feel its safe). I've tried running a long sword and two pots, but if this goes roughly there is no recovery other than taking an early back. If things run rough with the rejuv beads you can simply back off and often outpoke your enemy and then close in for a kill (or force them out of the lane).

Doran's shield does synorgize with this build exceptionally well from the start, and often is the best starting choice both for a good start and a fair chance at securing an early kill.

One thing to note is the lane I run is not what you would consider a farm late. Its a kill or be killed lane. I press hard maxing Shyvana's flame breath first for maximum poke (or balanced between burnout and flame breath for better trades with someone like Renek).

If I can I will wait for both Exhaust and Ignite to be up, poke them down to around half, watch for their mid and enemy junglers positions and then go in for the kill once everything checks clean enough. I also do my best to limit pressing my lane with burnout and will eat some CS loss if it means keeping me safer from ganks.

With this said, most of my top games have resulted in the need for significant jungler ganks from the enemy side or flat out camping me. Actually my last game was really funny because I faced Renek top. I was able to read his movement and it was clear their jungler (Eve was nearby). Shen then proceded to camp me the rest of the game. I'm not sure she was able to gank another single lane as Ren just couldn't dislodge me from the tower. He was able to trade almost even but any time she left, I would poke him down and either kill or press him out of the lane.

With this said I'm still not positive if its worth building Hydra vs Trinity when top. Hydra in itself lines up perfectly with what you need to do in lane, and with both Exhaust and Ignite it works well enough to close kills. Once you're in open team fights though Trinity is much better at chasing and killing targets.

And any which way... Shyvana as always falls off late game. I find myself split pushing in my even match ups in gold. Split pushing as fast as I can and then rushing to the team quick as I can and hoping they haven't over engaged. Even in a winning game I will often simply head the tower pushes where I want and hope the team follows behind lol.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-13-2013

Hi again.

For top there do exists different starting options:
1) vs ADlike riven: cloth/5
2) Flask / 2regens +pots - The flask is more for champs with mana like cho or malph. Shy would by the 2 regen items.
3) Dorans shield - why this compared to 2 regen? Dorans is a good pick vs AA champs like trynda, Jax and alike. If you face and AD caster or worse AP, then it doesnt help as much.

Lately I play CHogath top, his playstile is so much more relaxed.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-14-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
Lately I play Chogath top, his play style is so much more relaxed.


That's an interesting point. Shyvana top is so freaking nutty its not funny. The volatility in the lane is enough to strip people of their sanity. This same volatility attracts the enemy jungler. I've also noticed that I tend to attract many first gank attempts, pushed or not. Its almost as if being Shyvana in lane makes folks nervous enough that they have to poke the lane once to see what will happen.

I ran some other tests tonight to check some things. While running top you can easily go full tank tree top with the rest in offensive, and pickup Exhaust and Ignite. I actually like this a bit more as it lets me convert into a full tank over the coarse of the game. I am convinced that Hydra is a strong first item for top lane. If your lane enemy has considerable sustain you should get your vamperic scepter first before completing Tiamat.

After Hydra I typically build Spirit Visage and then Black Cleaver. After I tank up as much as humanly possible, balancing additional HP, armor, and magic resist based on the enemy carry. The end result is a Shyvana who does fair damage, splits insanely fast, regens rapidly, and can tank for the team. She is still sub ideal and does less damage than another comparable late game top due to her dysfunctional ultimate.

The interesting thing about a top tanky hydra build as opposed to a Trinity or Bork based build, is it allows you to split push so insanely fast. Which makes sense. But you literally can shove a lane to the tower and rejoin your team before anything interesting occurs if you're smart. This gets me into team fights more with the team while still reaping the gold and benefits of split pushes.

Note that I do not like running hydra in the jungle. I distinctly feel the loss of mobility compared to trinity during that critical portion of the game when lanes are ending and there are many open kills. Trinity is simply much better at securing those loose kills during the middle portion of the game, and when jungling your top/mid/adc are still craving minion waves so there are less waves to clear.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

09-14-2013

One last tip which is a pitfall of mine. The aggression you have to use to win your lane with Shyvana is extremely high and dangerous. Such that you have to keep yourself in check. Keep track of the enemy jungler, don't overextend, be aware of your enemy abilities and their cooldowns. Also remember than you are your own worst enemy. Because you have to use such aggression to win a top Shyvana lane, its very easy to press too hard and die. Personally this gets to me badly and I often will overpress AGAIN to compensate which only gets me in more trouble.

The issue being that you have to keep your aggression in check. You need to be aggressive enough to win but not so over-aggressive that you die.

My hardest matchup was Nasus and the one matchup I would admit that I lost. I didn't realize that Nasus's ultimate gave him a bunch of extra health (effectively healing him if he's low). And against other champions I will often press them low enough and let all my abilities come off cooldown and then ulti and spam her Q. With this Nasus he saved his ult baiting me to his super low health state only to turn around and jsut barely live.

Also I have gotten into the habit of witholding her ultimate for chasing rather than fighting... which is a HORRIBLE design. It is bitter knowing that as her only dive and the relative lack luster power of her ultimate that you are better off saving it for the final dive or chase. But this is often the truth.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

09-14-2013

Best play I have is saving Shyvana's Ultimate for Escaping Ganks (it comes off again pretty quick) or to chase. I actually found that Shyvana does amazingly well with a Support-Leona in Top Lane. Your bot pushes and farms Golems. Mid pushes and farms Wraiths, you farm top and your support-roams top/mid keeping pressure. Between Shyvana's damage and Leona's stuns it's an interesting meta-break.

Sadly I have only one game to back that claim so far but I escaped most ganks when facing a Zac top and Hecarim Jungle.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

09-14-2013

@Estred: Then you havent seen what a Volibear + Darius top can do. ^^


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

09-14-2013

Quote:
copperpoint:
@Estred: Then you havent seen what a Volibear + Darius top can do. ^^

I can imagine pretty well though.