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[Proposition] Shyvana Kit Rework.

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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-15-2013

Shyvana Kit Rework
Many changes were discussed, discard, modified and debated again by a group of dedicated Shyvana Players. With the feedback from the Shyvana Poll showing one hundred and six players feel that she is missing something and needs change the majority vote with fifty one votes being that he damage scaling is low, especially late game due to her having no reliable forms of Crowd Control when compared to similar champions. Other expressed issues with her movement being inconsistent and how easy it is to play against a Shyvana. Specifically once Burnout is activated it's easy in most cases to avoid Shyvana's brunt of her damage as the skill essentially is shouting to your opponent “I am about to attack you.” In late game her damage falls off and her tankyness doesn't make up for the Penetration options of S3 leaving her weak and not a threat in any fight.

Her new passive rework plays with her kit of being an auto-attack based duelist with an emphasis on tanky-damage. Keeping her current Armor/MR passive which is not as strong as it was in S2, Shyvana now shreds her opponents Armor/MR making extended engages more profitable for Shyvana. Since the bonus's double in Dragonform this pushes her survival up to actually deal damage as an engage-based bruiser.

The players had discussed how Twin Bite feels like it doesn't scale well but others has pointed out it is two auto-attacks at Rank 5 and has a 2.0 AD ratio because of it. So no change was thought to be needed.

Burnout was a big topic of discussion. In it's current form it granted the burst of movement needed to close a gap only if her opponents had no way to slow her down. Once they did a hard poke and disengage usually left Shyvana with abilities on Cooldown and a failed gank or a lost-trade. To alleviate this many things were discussed. The ultimate thought was to grant 10% Base movement to Burnout and remove it's decay. This promotes Shyvana as a high-mobility duelist late game but early game doesn't make her too fast which promotes counterplay. To make up for this increased reliability however Burnout saw a damage reduction at higher ranks. It saw a minor damage increase at rank 1 to promote fast junlging and counterjungling which are things Shyvana is known for. Slows such as Iceborn Gauntler or Frozen Mallet will greatly reduce Shyvana's speed and offer counterplay to her. In Dragonform Burnout felt a little lackluster and frequently enemies just walk through the fire-trail. This saw the discussion of possible True Damage or other forms, the final choice was to make standing in it for a duration mark targets with a DoT based onHP, much like Singed Poison clouds it helps Shyvana disengage if needed which helps remove passive play.

Moving on to Flamebreath. Many felt that the removal of the Armor Burn was a nerf to her overall damage and utility in teamfights. While it greatly helped make her an Objective securing champion the overall effect was her damage decreased late game. To alleviate this the damage of flamebreath has been significantly decreased but instead now scales off Maximum HP making it more powerful late game or in the Top lane as a means to fight more harass type champions. It was discussed that the percentage damage was the only aspect of Flamebreath beyond minor scaling damage and was an issue. Flamebreath now may be ranked quickly to increase her burn on hit by a small amount. In Dragonform playing off the new Burnout she may burn areas of the ground granting her zoning capacity to make up for her lack of CC. This way Shyvana brings more than just tanky-damage to a Teamfight. Granted the Fire Zone deals less damage it still provides control.

Finally moving on to Dragon's Descent. During PBE tests it was suggested that she drag her first hit target to her landing zone, this saw the issue of “stealing” a person out of a Teamfight and into the Jungle to 1v1 Shyvana. This granted too much control and instead the players discussed other means to maker her Ultimate more reliable to use. Scaling in damage now Dragon's Descent is weaker early game and stronger late game. Those caught in the landing zone by a very close radius are stunned for a short duration. This grants Shyvana the potential to initiate a fight but not as well as other Initiators. By extending her Melee Range it plays better to her now more auto-attack focused kit and mobility in a fight. The single largest change is that Shyvana will delay any Crowd Control effects until she lands. Players reported many cases where they would dive and be struck by CC aimed at an ally and would rather spectacularly glitch out in animations (Alistar and Malphite did this) While many other forms simple fizzled the damage of her Ult. Riot has said that Fizzling is not something they really enjoy in gameplay as it effectively wastes resources for the player. If Shyvana is still under CC when she lands though the effects will finish. An example would be if Dazzle struck Shyvana in flight she would finish the duration of the stun after she landed.

Overall this proposal will make Shyvana have more map presence without granting flat damage bonuses and better itemizes her builds making playing her more straightforward. See the 2nd post for the full list of changes. We the players kindly request Riot to consider our work. Months of discussion went into making this revision.

Proposition Change-Log
Change:Burnout modified to grant passive movement and then burst movement when activated. Movement decays to a minimum total while Active.
Reason: Burnout was granting too much movement at high levels leading to an overly mobile champion. New design keeps mobility high but limits it's overall effect late game.
Change2: Marked Optional to the new ideas added by previous change. Optional values are assuming testing shows that current proposition is too high for Burnout's Movement.
Flambreath Human Zone: Ability creates a "damage zone" even in Human form. Overall size is smaller and lasts for much shorter times. Allows possible ways for Shyv to counter a gank by revealing sight in the burning areas. That would mean an opponent struck the the bush would be visible until they moved out of the fire.
Stun on Descent As the only form of CC rather than .5 it has been altered to scale based on rank. This allows better initiations during late game when damage is higher.
Leap on Twin Bite Shyvana has no closer or finisher beyond her Ultimate. Forcing players to hold a skill is counter productive. Using Dragon's Descent should be a choice but not one that is required to secure a kill, you should be able to without relying on your Ult 100% of the time.
Burn on Flamebreath: As noted, Shyvana has no "Finisher" adding a DoT to Flamebreath will grant her some of that ability. Adding a mini Ignight to Flambreath would give her that option which is counterable by a single Health Pot as this effect does not reduce healing recieved. I would say 25 + 10/level maxing out at 205 True Damage Burn (50% of Ignite). If Shyvana is good she can land two Flamebreaths meaning a skillful Shyv has Ignite passively but not to the extent that Brand does (Mr. I burn 2% HP a second passively)


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-15-2013

Dragonborn
Shyvana gains 5/ 10/ 15/ 20 armor and magic resist. Basic attacks increase Shyvana's magical and physical resistance by 4 and lower the targets armor and magical resistance by 4; this ability stacks up to 5 times. Lasts for 5 seconds.
Shyvana's passive Armor and Magic Resist are doubled in Dragonform.

Twin Bite
Bonus Damage: 80 / 85 / 90 / 95 / 100% AD
Range: 175
Range Flame Strike: 350
Humanform: Shyvana selects a target marked with Cinders and may execute a Flame Strike. A short range leap that deals damage to targets between her and her opponent. Shyvana becomes untargetable during her dash.
Dragonform: No Change
Flame Strike Damage:
- Deals damage as Twin Bite to selected target.
- Deals 50% of Twin Bite's damage to target on the path.

Burnout
Duration: 5 Seconds
Base Movement Bonus: 10%
Bonus Movement Percent(Active): 0 / 12.5 / 25 / 37.5 / 50
Optional Decay Rate(Percent): 0 / 1.85 / 3.7 / 5.6 / 7.5
Optional Minimum Speed: 10 / 13.25 / 16.5 / 19.5 / 22.5
Extended Duration: 3 seconds
Damage Scaling: 30 / 42.5 / 55 / 67.5 / 80
Cooldown 12 Seconds
Cool Down Reduction Required to Reset Burnout: 33%
Burnout (Dragonform): Enemeis standing in the fire trail for 2 seconds are ignited dealing 2% of Maximum HP over 3 seconds as magic damage.

Flamebreath
Debuff Duration: 5 Seconds
Damage: 80 / 95 / 110 / 135 / 150
Ratio: 5% of maximum HP
Effects:
- Flamebreath (Humanform): Shyvana burns the ground ahead of her leaving a thin trail of fire behind her breath. This field lasts for 2.5 seconds and deals 25% of Flamebreath's Damage per second.
- Flamebreath (Dragonform): Shyvana burns the ground in front of her leaving a field of fire for 5 seconds. Enemies in the field take 50% of Flamebreaths damage per second.
- Cinders: Shyvana's Attacks Burn 2 / 2.25 / 2.5 / 2.75 / 3 percent of targets Maximum HP as Magic Damage.
- Cinders (Optional)Target takes 25 +10/level true damage over the duration of Cinders. Monsters take 25 damage a second.


Dragon's Descent
Damage: 300 / 400 / 500 +60% AP
Specials:
- Delay CC while Dashing. If CC effects remain when she lands she is still effected by them upon landing.
- Targets within 50 unit's of Shyvana's Landing Zone are stunned for .5/1/1.5 seconds.
- Shyvana gains 50 unit's of Melee Range.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

08-15-2013

*signed*

Its just awesome how many poeple worked on this and how well it turned out.

The design looks way more balanced and streamlined then the current one, giving her a clearer idea of what to buy for what purpose while barely changig the idea of the champion.
There is more room for counterplay, a better reward for playing good with her and an ulti that makes you think befor engaging her 1vs1, like you would against Renekton or Nasus.

Great job and thanks to everyone involved.

Now its up to Riot to make use of it.
So please, dont let the work of 100+ fans go to waste.
We have been waiting since S2 ended.


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Katrisa

Senior Member

08-15-2013

*signed*

I also have been maining Shyvana since I started playing LOL last October. I was quite disappointed to find out she was a suboptimal jungler (and poor toplane). Even after the recent patches she received she still is not a great choice. While I can squeeze some success out of her my truly successful build choices are limited in the ranked que. She does poorly with most team compositions, and picking her sometimes results in disgust from other teammates for picking a non CC jungler who does not add the appropriate damage that a non CC jungler should have.

Simply put Shyvana does not scale into late game well due to her design. She lacks innate tank resilience and lacks proper damage scaling.

Please consider Estred's complication of our thoughts and potential changes to her kit. We've discussed her thoroughly and the design proposed would help bring her back in line with the other top teir junglers, and give her a proper late game.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

08-15-2013

*signed*

I'll be frank. When I bought Shyvana, which was in S2, I didn't buy her because she was queen jungler (I was pre-30 and back then, there was no such thing as a jungler) or because she turns into a dragon, but because she IS half-dragon. That draconic half-breed theme (and all it ensued) hit at the very core of who and what I am.

Save for the little quote, the last line in Shyvana's lore it this.

Quote:
Shyvana strives to repay the prince’s kindness with the power of the dragon within, but she cannot help but wonder if the humans are right to fear her.


Nowadays, The 'best' emotion Shyvana would recieve would be a simple "meh". Where is that fear that is clearly and literally written in her lore? It's gone now.

Hence the reason why we, the Shyvana fans, came together, threw around a lot of ideas, and decided to go with the proposed kit above.

So Riot, please...

/beg
/cry

... give this thread some attention and if it comes down to it, we would love to sit down, exchange and discuss ideas so that we ALL can get at least something we (The fans and you at Riot) want.


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KryoFreeze

Member

08-15-2013

*signed*

I love how this worked out. Shyvana used to be one of the fastest junglers in S2 but ever since S3 she's been outclassed by everyone since the jungle changes. I agree with the above changes.

Riot, please do this. Listen to the fans!


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IonDragonX

Senior Member

08-15-2013

*signed*

Katrisa speaks the truth.

Quote:
Katrisa:
She does poorly with most team compositions, and picking her sometimes results in disgust from other teammates for picking a non CC jungler who does not add the appropriate damage that a non CC jungler should have.


Stonewall has also said in his article that:
http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/s...ularity-is-not (http://www.reignofgaming.net/blogs/stonewall/25376-broken-does-not-mean-overpowered-popularity-is-not)
Quote:
Shyvana and the Underused
With that in mind I come to my next topic of discussion - Shyvana. Now as I write this (and ranted about in the video) Shyvana was picked by the Chinese and did well. That's great and all and I hope people don't misinterpret what I said about Shyvana in the video. I personally don't feel Shyvana's buffs made much if a difference - they did a bit but they didn't address problems people feel she has such as lack of crowd control. They may have simply brought attention back to the champion and people decided to toss her into line ups again and see if she worked out. That's what I feel. ... Shyvana was never really bad just whatever she did was not needed at the time or the situations where she would be a strong pick became much rarer.
I added the bold lettering.

In the video he mentioned:
http://youtu.be/SQLd7UMB19o?t=10m22s (http://youtu.be/SQLd7UMB19o?t=10m22s)
To paraphrase what he says here:
Quote:
Her buff didn't do anything. As much as I don't like using her anymore, she's still good at what she does. Which is invading, farming the jungle and running around the map quickly BUT that craap isn't what's USEFUL right now. So if that became useful again, then maybe she'd see the light of day.


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Estred Shantile

Senior Member

08-15-2013

*Signed*

I led the discussion and compiled the ideas and I support them. Even if counter-jungling become Meta again Shyvana with these changes won't be overpowering in this point; just strong. As the above have said, Shyvana's weakness is not just known to those who play her. Competitive level players also recognize her as a weak pick. Teams in Ranks frequently are aggravated when Shyvana is picked as Katrisa pointed out.


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copperpoint

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Another thing I wanted to point out here:

Why was Shyvana good in S2 ?

1) Because the jungle was different, counterjungling was actually a good strategy to build upon.
2) The items favored tanks. The tank items had insane bonuses and made Shyvana tanky enough to sustain a lot of damage and therefore live long enough to actually do some damage lategame.
3) The lack of penetration items - So the tanks became almost immortal after some point. And with no pen to buy it didnt bother Shyvana that she only had her E armor shred, (Botrk didnt exist either so ther was no real synnergy)Nobody really had penetration so whatever ^^

As long as she keeps her strange design that is so fixed on items, she will stay a bad pick unless Riot goes back to S2 tank items or removes pen items.
And every change to Botrk or one other of her important items to nerf some champ, will effect her way more instead.

So please take this design proposal seriously and give her a rework.
A red post on this would be really nice.


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Shrouded Snake

Senior Member

08-16-2013

The thing about counterjungling is that it lasts as long as the laning phase. So even if CJ (counterjunglung for short) becomes meta, when it end the current kit's flaws will be exposed as much as it is now. So even if CJ becomes meta, all it does is delay the inevitable. The core of her problem will still be there.