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the usefulness of flash in ARAM

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Zezune

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
FDru:
Flash is not generally useful, it's generally bad. It's a selfish spell with a massively huge cooldown. Players who defend flash are the same players who stand behind the turret waiting for the game to end because they refuse to be aggressive. It's SR mentality at its best.


Flash heal, Flash nunu ulti, Flash Fiddles ult, Flash hook/grab, Flash Q for a kill, Flash to dive over enemy tank line to kill carries, Flash to escape an aoe, Flash to disengage, Flash to engage.

If that is bad, I'm glad to be bad then. Just don't whine when an amumu flash grabs into your team and kills them all.

What you describe is not flash, just passive players.

It honestly just sounds like you don;t know how to use it. That garbage anecdotal example has nothing to do with it since you have two gap closers to engage with, one being a tank.
The enemy team would have an even harder time dealing with that combo if they didn't have flash to help counter your gap closer.


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FDru

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Zezune:
What you describe is not flash, just passive players.


No, it's bad players. The #1 reason to take Flash is to correct positioning mistakes, and on this map positioning is handed to you for free. Ranged champs have it exceptionally easy and exhaust is vastly superior as a defensive spell. Using Flash offensively isn't even needed for champs with ranged poke, who you see taking flash all of the time anyway.

There's quite a few champs that can make good use of flash to initiate, which I already brought up. But players who take Flash on Lux/Nid, etc are bad. There's no way around it. They're idiots, they're selfish, and they can't think past their ass.


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Bions

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
FDru:
No, it's bad players. The #1 reason to take Flash is to correct positioning mistakes, and on this map positioning is handed to you for free. Ranged champs have it exceptionally easy and exhaust is vastly superior as a defensive spell. Using Flash offensively isn't even needed for champs with ranged poke, who you see taking flash all of the time anyway.

There's quite a few champs that can make good use of flash to initiate, which I already brought up. But players who take Flash on Lux/Nid, etc are bad. There's no way around it. They're idiots, they're selfish, and they can't think past their ass.


While it's true most players use it that way in anything lower than 2000 mmr, it's not always positioning mistakes. Since a lot of players run flash nowadays, it's not much of a stretch to imagine a veigar flashing in to stun and take you out real quick.

I agree that champs you mentioned (nid, ap kog, lux) who have an outrageously long reach don't need flash, but in my opinion, when you're playing as an adc or any type of carry that needs to be somewhat close (600-800 range), you will need it to reposition or get yourself out of an inevitably bad situation (malph ult, flashing veigar stun, flashing fid ult).

You cannot predict what your opponents are going to play in ARAM so my take on it is, as a carry, plan for the worst and just assume they'll have a lot of ways to get to you. Flashing away from a high dmg move will save you way more often than exhausting whichever bruiser is chasing you.

What I would suggest is the following:

1- Keep flash+barrier on everything thats obvious (fid, ali, galio, mumu, blitz)

2- barrier+heal/exhaust if you have a straight up peeler (maokai, leona)

3- ranged adc's should always have cleanse/flash, no exceptions

4- supports should always run heal and either flash (if you have an initiate requiring positioning, like sona or nami) or exhaust/barrier if you have something passive (janna, soraka, karma)

Choosing exhaust over heal will depend if you have a healer or if you're lacking cc (peel) for your carries. What do you guys say?


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FDru

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Bions:
What do you guys say?


Depends on which carry. For example Ashe or Ez don't ever need flash for any reason and shouldn't take it. Cleanse is a stupid idea in BLIND RANDOM because it might end up being almost completely useless depending on the enemy comp, which means you're basically stuck choosing between flash or exhaust (and barrier, because only morons don't take barrier).

Taking flash on Twitch or Vayne or whatever other short-ranged squishy champ you rolled isn't exactly what I'd call a crime. Last night I carried a game as Twitch (lost anyway, but still did damn good until late game) solely because I took exhaust and the enemy Kha'Zix was screwed every time he dove on me while it was up (and his entire team was blowing flash + ryze roots / taric stuns / ashe arrows on me all game which flash would have done absolute dick against).


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Bions

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
FDru:
Depends on which carry. For example Ashe or Ez don't ever need flash for any reason and shouldn't take it. Cleanse is a stupid idea in BLIND RANDOM because it might end up being almost completely useless depending on the enemy comp, which means you're basically stuck choosing between flash or exhaust (and barrier, because only morons don't take barrier).

Taking flash on Twitch or Vayne or whatever other short-ranged squishy champ you rolled isn't exactly what I'd call a crime. Last night I carried a game as Twitch (lost anyway, but still did damn good until late game) solely because I took exhaust and the enemy Kha'Zix was screwed every time he dove on me while it was up (and his entire team was blowing flash + ryze roots / taric stuns / ashe arrows on me all game which flash would have done absolute dick against).


As an adc, it isn't your job to keep khazix off your face, as counter-intuitive as it sounds. Your team is supposed to provide you with cc against your attackers, that's the sole point of having a team around an adc. Your team can do stuff about a khazix, however, they can't help you if you get caught by a flashing taric, for instance.

From the way you're describing it, flash and cleanse would of been more useful in that game since it can take out any of those cc and flash buys you 2 second from kha or straight up dodges an arrow. Exhaust stops one guy. cleanse and flash stops everything.

I'm looking at your lolking right now and you have 6 offensive items against an assassin, 3 stuns and 2 adc's. where is your banshees/randuins? why waste gold on an executioners calling/lw when you cant stand still to auto? When straight up auto attacking doesnt work, go defensive with high sustain. for instance, sanguine/botrk/banshees/merc.

Sometimes even if it seems like your teammates' fault, it doesn't mean that you're not to blame either. I played against you a bunch and you usually have a very negative attitude and blaming tendencies.


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FDru

Senior Member

08-16-2013

Quote:
Bions:
As an adc, it isn't your job to keep khazix off your face, as counter-intuitive as it sounds. Your team is supposed to provide you with cc against your attackers, that's the sole point of having a team around an adc. Your team can do stuff about a khazix, however, they can't help you if you get caught by a flashing taric, for instance.


If nobody else on the team takes Exhaust, then yeah it is actually my job to do it. It's completely stupid to not have one because if the enemy team has an assassin then you're basically ****ed without it.

Quote:
From the way you're describing it, flash and cleanse would of been more useful in that game since it can take out any of those cc and flash buys you 2 second from kha or straight up dodges an arrow. Exhaust stops one guy. cleanse and flash stops everything.


Can't flash while stunned. 5 minutes cooldown on flash and 48 second cooldown on Ashe ult. I don't think I need to do the math for you there.

Quote:
I'm looking at your lolking right now and you have 6 offensive items against an assassin, 3 stuns and 2 adc's. where is your banshees/randuins? why waste gold on an executioners calling/lw when you cant stand still to auto? When straight up auto attacking doesnt work, go defensive with high sustain. for instance, sanguine/botrk/banshees/merc.


I took EC vs 2 AD champs with Sanguine Blade, Ryze and a Taric. Weird. It's like trying to counter extreme sustain is an alien concept.

It worked very well by the way, but my team completely failed to protect me late game and I got murdered instantly in every fight and that's the only reason we lost. There's no finger pointing here, that's just how it is and you said it yourself... it's the team's job to protect the carry. Especially when it's one as vulnerable as Twitch.

Quote:
Sometimes even if it seems like your teammates' fault, it doesn't mean that you're not to blame either. I played against you a bunch and you usually have a very negative attitude and blaming tendencies.


First of all, what's said in game stays in game. Second, I almost never speak in-game so what difference does it make anyway? If you don't want to hear after-game trashtalk, then leave the ****ing lobby.


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Bions

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
FDru:
If nobody else on the team takes Exhaust, then yeah it is actually my job to do it. It's completely stupid to not have one because if the enemy team has an assassin then you're basically ****ed without it.



Can't flash while stunned. 5 minutes cooldown on flash and 48 second cooldown on Ashe ult. I don't think I need to do the math for you there.



I took EC vs 2 AD champs with Sanguine Blade, Ryze and a Taric. Weird. It's like trying to counter extreme sustain is an alien concept.

It worked very well by the way, but my team completely failed to protect me late game and I got murdered instantly in every fight and that's the only reason we lost. There's no finger pointing here, that's just how it is and you said it yourself... it's the team's job to protect the carry. Especially when it's one as vulnerable as Twitch.



First of all, what's said in game stays in game. Second, I almost never speak in-game so what difference does it make anyway? If you don't want to hear after-game trashtalk, then leave the ****ing lobby.


I don't care about seeing trashtalk. It just makes you look like an idiot. Look yourself:

http://i.imgur.com/Ism3q0w.jpg


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FDru

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
Bions:
I don't care about seeing trashtalk.


You don't care so much that you screenshot it and post it on the forums.

BTW, a free win comp is a free win comp. Denying it just makes you an ass. And I think I'm perfectly entitled to talk **** when the first thing that's said by the winning team is apparently how "easy" we should have won.


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Bions

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Quote:
FDru:
You don't care so much that you screenshot it and post it on the forums.

BTW, a free win comp is a free win comp. Denying it just makes you an ass. And I think I'm perfectly entitled to talk **** when the first thing that's said by the winning team is apparently how "easy" we should have won.


Grrr I'm not happy! Better insult others!


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W3rDGotMilk

Senior Member

08-17-2013

Really want to chime in here but it wont do much good. Anyone wanting to learn from this look at the screenshot, compare the strengths and weaknesses of the champions then note how long the game lasted, amount of deaths and the builds. That combined with probably the 2 highest aram mmr ragers on one team and it spells disaster mixed with a healthy dose of no teamwork.

ARAMW/L predicted winning team only had a 54% chance to win too, not a hand me game at all.