Skarner, I miss your kind

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TiberiusAudley

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Adjudicator

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey All,
• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

-Scruff
The most fun aspects of playing Skarner
Playing "Fetch" with the enemy carries.
Being able to output consistent DPS over the course of a fight with your "pulse" of a Q.
That's...pretty much it.

Frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner
Skarner is very prone to kiting. While this is a fine balancing point to his inherent kit's power due solely to his ultimate... it means ONE thing can be very frustrating:
When you FINALLY make it in range to ult, the enemy player flashes away at the last second, making all your effort wasted. Once your W times out, you no longer have a chance to fulfill your primary objective.

Frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner:
Permaslow. But honestly, given its range, I think it's fair.

Champions that do Skarner's job better than Skarner
Lee Sin, because of Sightstone and his double gap closer + Kick. Lee can Q anyone on a team, Sightstone-ward hop with W behind your team, and kick your carry. This one is even better than Skarner's because 1) It is not prone to being kited out, and 2) It is not cleansable through QSS.

To a lesser degree, Blitzcrank, Thresh, and Alistar are all quite capable of doing the job as well, but I would not necessarily say they do it any better.


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IcyOps

Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner

Building triforce+wits end to be able to deal a considerable dmg over time. His ulti, his Q is really fun too use. Overall, its the spammability of his abilities due to his passive.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Being useless after ulti, especially due to the full tank jungle meta right now. His clear isn't good either.
He gets kited if he can't get his Q's slow off, this can get mitigated with an increased amount of movespeed in base or on W. His kit doesn't make sense, there are hybrids that can actually be built hybrid and then there is skarner. He needs either A. AD scaling for his W, E, R, or B. Good base stats with low scaling .

Where do you want to go with him? Bruiser or tank?

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

Being ulted into the entire enemy team, this the players fault though and has lots of counter play (QSS, Peel, better positioning)


• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Skarner is unique but there are champions that "jungle" better than him, Nautilus, Zac, Elise, J4, Nasus to name a few. Each of them bring loads of CC or dmg or a mixture of both.


Hybrid ratios are the biggest design flaw.


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8carpileup

Junior Member

07-29-2013

most frustrating thing playing as skarner
-my Q being ineffective at slowing while chasing. I know you can run ahead of them and use it to hit but it still seems a little lack luster


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Interpolantics

Junior Member

07-29-2013

Make him burrow like Elise's rappel, get rid of the E.


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Hound Archon

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Alright, yay for Skarner fix potential.

What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Flying through the jungle while empowered by his shield, getting off a successful ult which breaks down the enemy's teamfight capability.

What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Being kited to hell and gone from minimalistic CC, making me flash dependent to do anything meaningful against non-melee champions. And my E is a joke. I also cannot build him as a melee carry in the fashion that I can other melee characters with similar kits for fun, because those other melee characters are better able to deal with kiting than I am. Skarner is a one trick pony, and the most mana hungry champion in the game right now.

What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
He's only frustrating to play against if you don't have any CC to begin with. He's a one trick pony, and proper warding + mediocre ranged CC will keep him safely useless for the game.

Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Almost every single bruiser that sees play in the jungle right now can jungle better than Skarner, mainly because for the most part, they have a ganking mechanism pre-6, and an effective way to mitigate being kited. Nasus' wither keeps potential kiting to a minimum, Jarvan closes with E-Q, Zac has multiple ways to close and stick to his target, Vi has a strong gap closer pre-6, Hecarim is a horse, Nautilus is a walking pile of CC, Leona can gank from level 2 if she doesn't get shield until 3, Xin Zhao has a low CD gap closer that gets lowered further by his Q and slows opponents in the radius, I could go on. The point is that all of these champions have a way to ensure they close the gap, or at least control the enemy if they aren't actually right next to them.


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Gøëthë

Junior Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
His ult is fun, and everyone has touched on that. His q makes teamfights fun, because otherwise what would you do besides have your shield up and auto if his ult was down? His ability to affect all parts of a team fight in some way is satisfying. It feels good to hound down a champion for as long as it takes for your team to catch up and to suddenly switch to another target and keep him occupied.
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
His e always feels useless. The range feels awkward when you can be fast enough and have enough cooldown to use q rather inifinitely. It doesn't do anything for skarner and it only sets up counterplay against skarner where you can very easily punish him if he wants to heal off of the marks. It's not clear what items he should be building anymore either.
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
His visual cues are a little muddled. It's not obvious what he's doing which makes me confused if he wins a duel or makes me completely ignore him as long as he's not ulting. It seems as though it's not a very interactive game to play against skarner. Sources of counterplay are mainly simply the fact that he's melee and that you can easily outdamage him.
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Nami has a better time keeping her team in range of her enemies due to the type of kit that she has. Skarner's playstyle is currently set on backtracking. He's like a detective. Not only is he looking for clues of his kind (that he misses), but he has to review his crime scene (fights with champions). He has to go back and consume the mark, he has to follow the villain in order to make proper use of his q, and he usually pulls his target to the team with his ult. I think this is an unique playstyle within the game, as if he's a mobster who has come to collect and that his kit and visual cues need to be refined to make this obvious and impactful.


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HappyJaguar

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Member

07-29-2013

Move the slow to proc when E lands, and a stacking attack speed buff (like jax) per hit of Q. You get rid of the perma slow and increase counter play while also increasing the potential power of a well placed E. The damage shifts to longer engages, increasing utility against dragon and baron and would give him even more of a frenetic appeal like Olaf as he duels.


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Sylvr

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Oh damnit, I slept through a Skarner discussion... fml

Skarner is my go-to Jungler in Ranked. Something about him just clicks with me, and I'm able to win more often than I lose.

Aside from his E being useless (which I think has been sufficiently addressed already), the problem I see with him is that his melee-ranged ult is incredibly hard to get off, and then utilize. Basically, there are 3 ways to use his ult. First is with Flash. Second is capitalizing on a mistake from your opponent. Third is in a wombo-combo with your teammates. Even within these scenarios, there is still a fair chance of your ult being rendered useless by CC or a jump/dash/Flash from the enemy. Basically, it's a nightmare getting TO your opponent, and then another nightmare pulling them AWAY.

Have you considered making him CC immune while he has someone Impaled?
Have you considered increasing his grab range?
Have you considered allowing him to ignore unit-collision during some aspect of his kit?


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Mimic94

Junior Member

07-29-2013

Its nice to see that one of my old favorite champs is actually getting the attention he deserves

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

His Ult is great for completely turning around fights, and his jungle clear is awesome, so long as he doesnt loose blue for some reason.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Skarners main purpose when he came out was to practically scare the living **** out of the opponents whenever he got too close. He was a ganking god that no one wanted to get too close to, especially when he was near a turret. However, He was only truly effective as a ganker when he had his ult, which isn't often. His Ult simply has too long of a CD to me. He's also one of the most mana dependent tanks in the game

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

TBH I can't help here. The only time I ever see skarner in game is when I play him :/

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Skarners main purpose is to be able to walk into a fight, hold down the marksman until theyre killed by your team, and then be able to do massive damage with his AoE q.

I feel that pretty much any other tank does this, whether its with or without the team.
Garen's ult destroys anything it touches, and he has an AoE that does more damage than skarners in shorter amounts of time.
Malphite's ult no only hits the marksman, but everyone in the vicinity of his ult. He too has great take-out ability, and his chase downs are better than most tanks.
Nautilus' ult takes out anything in its path, and has such massive CC that focusing one person pretty much guarantees that that person is going absolutely nowhere.
Shyvanna has an awesome Aoe, and ult to simply pass through any team, and a small percent damage dealer.
Jarvan IV has a knock-up gap closer and an isolator, with an Aoe slow/shield. this combined with his innate Attack Damage kills pretty much anyone he targets.

All of these champions do exactly what Skarner is supposed to do, but not only do they do it better, but they can do it alone if they really wanted to.




Heres my 2 cents for your rework:

Please make skarner better at getting to the marksman and dragging them back to where his team is. Make Skarner do damage to the marksman while he is dragging them, or give him an extra speed buff while he s holding them. The one he gets from the shield doesnt last long enough to be helpful in a teamfight.


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BergMeister

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Ok, it seems like we are in pretty near agreement about Skarner's problems. He is definitely still a fun character, so we are not going to scrap his kit or something severe like that. I think a combination of a few good changes could really bring him back into a nice sweet spot as a viable champ.

I am going to try these changes out and do some playtesting to see how they affect him. No guarantees that these are the right changes or the ones that will end up being in the final set.

I think a really powerful change that would make Skarner's kit more clear in its usage and counterplay would be to focus the W and E abilities more for a single purpose each. W can be his defensive and gap closing ability exclusively. Inversely, E can be more focused as a brawling/jungle clearing/damaging ability.

Overall
-Overall mana costs reduced (probably looking at E first its super costly)

Q
-Hopefully removing permaslow by making the slow only occur on every other Q instead of all Qs after the first. To balance the loss in slow duration here, I want to make it a much stronger slow that decays over time but leaves gaps for people to counterplay. Hopefully this will be fun for skarner players too because they can now make some smart decisions when they want to use the new more powerful Q slow.

W
-Increase the movespeed buff so that it is closer to other similar champs like Udyr and Volibear
-Possibly make the movespeed ramp up over time so its not too powerful of an escape "get out of jail free" ability
-Lower cooldown back to 14s from 18s like it was a few patches ago
-Strengthen the shield amount/AP ratios (to compensate for the loss of heal from E)
-Remove attack speed from the W buff

E
-Instead of the heal, proccing the E mark on targets will now give skarner his attack speed buff
-Increase total damage, but split it up so that only some is up front and the rest happens when you proc the mark
-Reduce mana cost
-Look into better usability (faster projectile, faster cast, etc) may be one or all of these

R
-Fix more edge cases so that the R will reliably go off on targets once it has been cast


These are still very much work in progress, and I still want your input on how you feel about these changes. I will also keep coming back to fill you all in on how these changes feel in internal playtesting.
What if you did that and made his E more of a cone type ability rather than a line based ability, think of it as more of a slam on the ground that kicks up crystals, attacking a marked target then increases his attack speed and heals him for a small portion of the damage dealt with that next attack, be it ability or auto attack.