Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Ajax Oilid

Senior Member

07-29-2013

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ raise your skarners ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ノ


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MattackSC

Senior Member

07-29-2013

I loved Skarner doing season 2, he was my absolute favorite champion to play in the jungle.
The most fun aspect of playing skarner was having the ability to chase down an enemy champion and pull him into your team by use of his ultimate. His passive also made it very rewarding to build attack speed on skarner, and few things are more rewarding than having so many resets on your Q that you can chase down just about anyone.
The most frustrating aspect of playing skarner was how easily kited his was by champions with high movement speeds or spammable slows. Also it was extremely easy to have your shield bursted down, removing your movement speed steroid and making you extremely vulnerable to kiting for the duration of the cool down (made every more painful due to not being able to take advantage of his passive)
The most frustrating aspects of playing against skarner is of course his ultimate. It was an ever present fear to all carries who had to play against skarner that at a moments noticed they could be dragged into the opposing team and completely destroyed.
Of course no champion as the ability to do what skarner can do in his ultimate, but aside from that there are many other champions that have much more reliable movement speed steroids and chasing potential (Udyr for example) that also completely out classes skarner in damage and sustain. Due to that fact, the only reason to ever pick skarner is for his ultimate, but with the nerfs to it it has become lackluster and not as satisfying to use.


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Ellzam

Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a big fan of "monstrous" champions. Renekton, Skarner, Zac, Cho'Gath, etc. Much of my love of Skarner is the concept, especially the original concept that was expressed: a monster lurking in the jungle, ready to grab anyone who strays too close and dismantle them.

However, I think as Season 2 and the Jungler meta changed, that vision diminished. While there were fringe cases of Skarner being able to carry, nice videos of Skarner perhaps using an ult + Shurelya to zip someone who strayed too far from the line to end a standoff, etc. Skarner hasn't been able to move with the meta. His aoe clearing made him very fun in the jungle, but with the reduction in small creep health and the increase in large creep health, his clear is no longer exceptional. His item pathing really still sits at Bulwark/Kindlegem items and is stagnant, even when you're carrying anything else is too much of a risk.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Mana starvation. I think it's become pretty clear by the responses at this point that Skarner is too throttled by his mana both in the jungle and in lane.

The poor ratios on all of his skills are one thing that make "Tank Skarner" the only option. His Q has a mixed ratio and all his remaining skills have poor AP ratios. Skarner can't afford to build any AP in a jungle environment unless he's rebuilt to work as something like an AP Assassin. If you want to stick with the idea of Skarner primarily being a tank, please consider having his shield scale with armor. In short, I'd like itemization and the possibility to shift Skarner into a bruiser worth having on the team post-30 minutes.

The movement speed boost on his W is pretty poor in the current game. It's dangerous to compare champion skills, but a rank 3 Bear Stance from Udyr outpaces Rank 5 Crystal Exo and rank 1 Rolling Thunder on Voli (towards enemy) outpaces rank 5 Crystal Exo. Both of these champions can afford taking Ghost as well for doubling down on the "speed persona" while Skarner needs his flash to have a chance to use his ultimate.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

Don't play against him much if ever. I imagine from someone else's perspective, Skarner's permaslow is rather irritating. Other than that there is nothing that ever should give someone trouble with against Skarner unless they simply don't know his kit. His E is meaningless, his shield is weak, he can be CC'ed upon sight disregarding his W. I suppose his R is painful to the other team if they have no escapes and let themselves be drastically caught out of position, but it should be.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Volibear and Singed both have "grab" mechanics that remained unchanged after Skarner's ult was "bug fixed." In fact, both of these skills negate flashes cast used. Lee Sin can kick people for further distances than Skarner can possibly with Shurelya, etc. Nautilus arguably locks down people with more CC and has a stronger shield, all of the above sustain better than Skarner and have better mana management. Basically right now if you want a jungler that runs in and picks one person out rather than ostentatious aoe initiations like Jarvan, you choose Udyr or Volibear who can do more on less farm.


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e Cesium

Junior Member

07-29-2013

What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

Getting a good ultimate on a carry

What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

His ult is way too low range and his w doesn't give him enough speed to get in to that range. Also his e is almost useless because it can't poke and does no damage. His q doesn't slow nearly enough. It's like a shyvana w every 2 seconds rather than continuous. Skarner is basically a much weaker version than shyvana and that's pretty bad because shyvana is not the best champion right now.

What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

None, I'm excited for the free win

Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Zac, huge gap closer and a knockup, tanky and won't die when attacking the carries, if he does he has his passive.

J4 he has 2 gap closers and his ult basically traps the enemy carries

vi, her ultimate is insane range and its an unavoidable cc like skarner's but she just has more range, her e does more aoe damage and gives her a large shield, her q provides a lot more mobility than skarner's w.

udyr, his shield is basically like skarners but is a much shorter cd and his e makes him go faster and stuns every time its up rather than every 60 seconds or so for skarner's ult. Udyr also does a lot more aoe damage with phoenix, a lot more than skarner's q


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Noxe Out

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Recruiter

07-29-2013

Revert the nerf to his ult, you used to be able to ult and if they flashed, you still got the ult off. Now? The sound of his ult goes off and you can be running backward with no one in tow. That's really frustrating. IIRC, Singed/Voli fling still go off if someone flashes. Why single out Skarner?

I have a few games play in Diamond elo with Skarner, think I'm 8-3 with him but he's just not as useful anymore. I can pick Zac/J4 and increase my chance of winning 10 fold.


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Kernalgohd

Junior Member

07-29-2013

Id like skarners abilities to stay the same, maybe nerf the shield value and add some defense steroid to it, or nerf the ratio and buff the initial size, and add more damage to his ult, its a cool CC, but I'd like it to be able to contribute to the fight a little more than the move CC, since we got other champs that can displace a much greater distance (Unless you are running ghost shurelias skarner, but flash is too important for that surprise factor with his ult to give up, and you are most likely playing skarner in the jungle)

I would suggest the following changes based on skarner playing more tanky than damage (as he should considering his skillset)

Energize (Passive): Fine where it is.

Crystal Slash (Q): Fine where it is

Crystalline Exoskeleton (W): Either;
a) Make it last longer to be used to rush to your team from a distance,
b) Bring the CD to 15 seconds, for being so crucial to his passive with the atk spd, having it last 6 seconds, AND be a tiny little shield is a little annoying
c) give it a scaling CD starting at the 18 it is now (any longer and jungling would be too tough for the poor bug) to 12 or 14 (Maybe nerf the ap ratio so building a deathcap into tonnes of Resistance is a bit discouraged)
d) Give it a Resistance steroid (and once again lower the ratio for the same reason as C)

Fracture (E): Make the skillshot wider, so it can hit all the wraiths more consistently, and increase the heal cap to triple instead of double, so nailing a full wave of creeps and using crystal slash can provide a satisfying heal and enough surprise to sway the battle and reduce the damage on it to a max of 200 instead of 240. If there were any change that would make people play skarner, even in lane more, it would be this one.

Impale (R/Ultimate): Super cool ability, but you almost always forget it does damage. For an ability that shoots crystal right through the torso of his enemies, and then continues to drag them around by the chest, all the while laughing like a fiend, its really lackluster on the whole damage front. And honestly, it doesnt pin them for very long, and anyone who is really worried about it can just get and use a Quicksilver Sash, so they will only take half damage from it while the rest gets wasted away with the 2 minute cooldown.

Right now Skarner just runs around the field, laughing like a tart and using his ult once, then continuing on to pretend he does significant damage, and all the other tanks around him run around the field, causing a major problem fo the enemy team, while doing significant enough damage to make players want to burn them down against their better judgement. With a few of these changes (Not all of them are needed, but all are good ideas individually) Skarner too will be able to join the higher echelon of tanks, and will finally get to join in on their reindeer games. Skarners core kit is perfect, it does the exact job it needs to, just not to the level it needs to, the movement speed buff on his W wirks nicely with his Qs slow, and the slow, attack speed buff, and the speed to keep hitting a target makes his passive work so well, But a single one of these two abilities just doesnt get the job done, that is why something needs to be done about the exoskeleton cooldown, or to make it more valuable in teamfights. Fracture is a nice thought, but is just a joke in the eyes of most people (though I will always level it third because I used it once as the enemy fired the final auto attack at me, just using the tip to last hit a minion and get the heal off all the while running away enough to not get hit again and die, beautiful moment, sad I didnt record it.) The heal you get is not worth getting it until you have to, its only valuable when you max it, but doing so first costs you so much presence its just not worth it. And his ult is nifty and all, but thats about it, its nifty, barely useful other than the CC it provides, the minor displacement is nothing when nautilus, thresh and blitz can all pull people a quarter mile, and leesin can do some sick plays to safely kick the **** outta someone into your own team.

PSA: Im not a dev for riot, so if Im out to lunch bat **** crazy about all of this, dont act surprised, its possible they already ran the tests on stuff like this and decided against it at one point. (Though as changes are made, its always good to revisit some older options and see how they play out.) Thanks for the read.


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Spite

Senior Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Running up and grabbing people, destroying people with q-spam, abusing Skarners passive to get insanely low cooldowns

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
People escaping from ult (or running at them) with blinks or jumps

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Not really sure, haven't played much against him.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
No champion has Skarner's mixture of innate tankiness, stickiness, clear potential, initiation/catching power and dueling ability. Zac and Sejuani are two example of champions who are arguably stronger than Skarner in many areas, however neither match his dueling potential.


Hi, S3 Gold 2 Skarner player here with about 70% winrate on Skarner.
In the jungle, Skarner boasts fantastic clear speed with q, amazing post-6 ganks as well as decent pre-6 ganks with Skarners slow and MS boost. He can deal with most champions 1v1 in the jungle and is incredibly strong when the enemy has poor vision control.
Skarner's main weakness is his reliance on items to be useful in mid-lategame, and reliance on doing well early game, which can be exploited through counterjungling and playing safe with ward placement. Certain champions (Lee Sin, Udyr, etc) who are able to duel Skarner early on are incredibly dangerous due to his lack of strong escapes, and can easily put Skarner on the back foot (feet?) where his damage and tankiness quickly fall off. More importantly, Skarner is more reliant than most junglers on ward placement. Having no solid gap closers Skarner needs to be able to run up to enemy champions in order to effectively gank. This becomes a bigger problem at higher levels of play, and is probably the main reason Skarner is not competitively picked as a jungler.

I'd also like to point out that contrary to pretty much everyone's statements, Iceborn gauntlet does not make Skarner obsolete. In fact, it synergises fantastically with Skarners kit. The additional slow allows Skarner to attack more and stick better and Skarner's ability to spam his ability means that IBG will be used to its maximum potential. Needless to say the additional damage is also very helpful.

Overall I feel that Skarner is in a decent place. He is balanced and has clear strengths and weaknesses which can both be abused. If any change needs to be made, it should be on Skarner's E ability. It does almost literally nothing, and is not worth leveling in comparison to Skarner's other abilities. Since Skarner is already quite strong in many categories I feel that a straight buff would make Skarner too strong. The best answer would probably be to increase the utility (and decrease the damage) of Skarner's E in order to make Skarner more useful when behind, but this would probably require a nerf in another area.

I'm not really sure if my insight has been helpful but I hope you learn something from my post. I'm honestly not sure of what changes Skarner needs, since he's quite balanced as is. Thank you for reading!

EDIT: flash of brilliance. Make Skarner's E heal for % health instead of flat.
pls.


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Lilumz

Junior Member

07-29-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

His ability to duel extremely well once he achieves certain items. His ability to pull was obviously the defining part of his kit and was very enjoyable until it was nerfed.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

In my opinion, utilizing his passive during his ult and ganks is very frustrating. His complete inability to autoattack during his ult feels terrible.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

Skarner's habit of hitting huge item power spikes. An early sheen gives skarner tremendous dps capabilities and makes him an excellent duelist, and Skarner is very dangerous if he completes his boots well before you do because of his permaslow capability.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

As mentioned many times, Skarner's most unique aspect just doesn't bring as much to the table, and it's incredibly easy to counter him. He's also incredibly reliant on his ult once you reach the late game, unlike other champions who can continue dish out damage or high utility while Skarner struggles to stick onto even one champion.


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0xiDIzE

Member

07-29-2013

I'd like to go ahead and share my thoughts on the proposed changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Overall
-Overall mana costs reduced (probably looking at E first its super costly)
Excellent. Skarner is definitely too mana-hungry and even building a single mana regen item does not alleviate this currently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Q
-Hopefully removing permaslow by making the slow only occur on every other Q instead of all Qs after the first. To balance the loss in slow duration here, I want to make it a much stronger slow that decays over time but leaves gaps for people to counterplay. Hopefully this will be fun for skarner players too because they can now make some smart decisions when they want to use the new more powerful Q slow.
Sounds good. I feel like if a champion is so far pushed/out of position that Skarner has the opportunity to hit them with Q multiple times, they should be punished, and somewhat heavily. Other melee junglers with MS steroids have this capability (IE Udyr's stun, Nocturne's fear, Trundle's pillar). If you can't find the middle ground for a slow, I might suggest changing the CC to a short stun or fear which can only be procced once every ten seconds or so on the same target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
W
-Increase the movespeed buff so that it is closer to other similar champs like Udyr and Volibear
-Possibly make the movespeed ramp up over time so its not too powerful of an escape "get out of jail free" ability
-Lower cooldown back to 14s from 18s like it was a few patches ago
-Strengthen the shield amount/AP ratios (to compensate for the loss of heal from E)
-Remove attack speed from the W buff
As long as it starts at around the speed it is currently and ramps up from there, I'm happy with the changes here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
E
-Instead of the heal, proccing the E mark on targets will now give skarner his attack speed buff
-Increase total damage, but split it up so that only some is up front and the rest happens when you proc the mark
-Reduce mana cost
-Look into better usability (faster projectile, faster cast, etc) may be one or all of these
All sounds excellent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
R
-Fix more edge cases so that the R will reliably go off on targets once it has been cast
Probably one of the most needed changes. Flash shouldn't cancel his ultimate, and if it's going to remain that way, then make sure his ultimate isn't put on cooldown unless it actually has an effect.


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Koechophe

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Senior Member

07-29-2013

AP skarner is actually really fun, and cool. I'd really hate for you guys to remove it.