Skarner, I miss your kind

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APrinnyDood

Junior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
It sure does, let's talk about the 30 minutes of the game it takes you to get to 40% cooldown, and what Skarner is going to do the majority of the time in games: gank.

The passive is great, but only works if you get to auto attack. Currently, auto attacking is pretty easy once you lock in the Q. However, let's use a hypothetical, typical gank to explain what is gonna happen now.

Run in, apply slow, auto attack twice, they run away. You still have 6 seconds before the slow is ready, you have less attack speed than you did before these changes, and you still have no burst skill. You also have a weaker shield (your movement speed gets crushed quickly) because you have to invest in E instead of a 2nd level of W, which means your slow stays at just a 30% slow until your W is maxed.

You're being disingenuous. Lots of the champions listed have similar uptimes to the uptimes you are talking about at 40% CDR. Chogath, for example, has permaslow at 40% CDR.
Three things: First, the overall point is that you posting numbers without taking the passive into account is misleading. It looks at flat cooldowns instead of effective cooldowns because that makes Skarner appear worse. You don't have to present numbers for 40% CDR; just present the CD numbers for Skarner when he's making decent use of the passive.

Secondly, your gank assumes the laner is doing nothing. The entire point of the ranged slow is that you can apply a slow quicker so that the laner can capitalize with their own CC. Your example is good for catching someone out in the jungle, and damn, won't that be weaker. It's really unrealistic for ganking a lane because a lane has a teammate who presumably wants the enemy dead, and will use the 2.5 seconds of slow to jump their asses.

Third, Cho doesn't have permaslow at 40% CDR. His Q has a 9 second CD, which will be 5.4 with 40% CDR. His Q then has a knockup of 1 second, and a slow of 1.5 seconds (the tooltip may say or have said otherwise, but a Rioter confirmed recently that it was 1.5 seconds.) That means that there will be 2.9 seconds of non-impaired movement before the next Q. Even if you assumed the slow was 3 seconds like the tooltip said/says, then it would be 1.4 seconds of knockup and slow before the slow ended. Where are you seeing permaslow in all this?

Dude, you've got a problem with trying to present everything as negatively as possible. I know you don't want the Skarner rework to happen. I don't either. Still though, it doesn't help us make a good case if it looks like we're trying to present the data in unrealistic ways.

And finally: Seriously Riot, 24% attack speed? Come on, we can do better than that. I know it's got a 100% uptime, but it needs time to stack and it's still just not that much. Give us a little more.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by APrinnyDood View Post
Three things: First, the overall point is that you posting numbers without taking the passive into account is misleading. It looks at flat cooldowns instead of effective cooldowns because that makes Skarner appear worse. You don't have to present numbers for 40% CDR; just present the CD numbers for Skarner when he's making decent use of the passive.

Secondly, your gank assumes the laner is doing nothing. The entire point of the ranged slow is that you can apply a slow quicker so that the laner can capitalize with their own CC. Your example is good for catching someone out in the jungle, and damn, won't that be weaker. It's really unrealistic for ganking a lane because a lane has a teammate who presumably wants the enemy dead, and will use the 2.5 seconds of slow to jump their asses.

Third, Cho doesn't have permaslow at 40% CDR. His Q has a 9 second CD, which will be 5.4 with 40% CDR. His Q then has a knockup of 1 second, and a slow of 1.5 seconds (the tooltip may say or have said otherwise, but a Rioter confirmed recently that it was 1.5 seconds.) That means that there will be 2.9 seconds of non-impaired movement before the next Q. Even if you assumed the slow was 3 seconds like the tooltip said/says, then it would be 1.4 seconds of knockup and slow before the slow ended. Where are you seeing permaslow in all this?

And finally: Seriously Riot, 24% attack speed? Come on, we can do better than that. I know it's got a 100% uptime, but it needs time to stack and it's still just not that much. Give us a little more.
About Cho - I checked my data again and I am flat wrong. "Targets hit are slowed by 60% for 1.5 seconds after landing. "

About the passive - Is it not possible to compare a skill with specifically what it can do against other characters skills of similar utility? Other champions have amazing passive's. Why is it necessary to talk about a skill specifically comparable to other champs skills and take into account their other skills? The passive should be a benefit -outside- the strength of his skills, just like every other champion.

But, I'll give you that a skillset is generally created in conjunction to the other skills. In that regard, taking away permaslow demolishes Skarner's damage dealing ability, which is based 100% on steady damage over a period of time, not burst. Not allowing Skarner to "stick" to a champion directly affects his ability to deal damage more-so than other champions with a similar problem, simply because he never has access to any burst.

The laner will be doing something when live Skarner ganks too. This won't change with the change of Skarner's toolkit. Why is it relevant to talk about what the laner is doing with respect to the relative strength of Skarner's ganks with these changes? If we used your example, I could argue that since the laner would slow or cc the target, live Skarner benefits more from cc on a teammate because he is more able and ready to apply the permaslow, which allows him to take more advantage of his passive. How will these changes help Skarner gank for a teammate like Shyvanna, or gangplank? That's a whole different point and not what we're talking about.

----We are talking about the relative strength of the champion when you compare his current kit with the kit that they are talking about implementing. His current kit has a built in permaslow on his main damage dealing skill. They balance this by giving him decent damage over the course of a long fight, but not any burst at all, and not the greatest gap close (easily popped, cc'd, not a leap like many jungles, etc). His new kit has a garbage 8% stacking 3x attack speed steriod on his main damage skill instead, which reduces his bonus attack speed steriod by over 50% of what it currently is (50% to 24%). He has less sustain because he gets no health back anymore, but he does have a generic slow that compares badly to the rest of the cast. The only thing that directly increased is the movement speed bonus (9% rank 1, 17% rank 5) and shield value (a whopping -5- total until level 8.., a whopping 30 at rank 5) ----

It could be argued that he will not conceivably even use the 2nd and 3rd stacks of the 8% in a gank. The slows and cc will have expired after the first 4-5 seconds, and then you are just chasing people, at which point attack speed is irrelevant.


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Moriyokiri

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Senior Member

11-22-2013

Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't this rework just removing his heal, weakening his AS buffs and gutting his slow? Where is the improvement? Why can't they just leave his Q alone and fix the E??


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriyokiri View Post
Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't this rework just removing his heal, weakening his AS buffs and gutting his slow? Where is the improvement? Why can't they just leave his Q alone and fix the E??
Well, in addition to fixing the ult and increasing the movement speed on the shield, it removes the heal (which is partially addressed by the shield strength and CD improvements, which also increases the speed uptime), it modiefies the Attack Speed (24% with 1% base reduction is slower than 50%, but the shield always broke instantly so you can actually use the Attack Speed late game), and the slow.... um, the slow... well, I can't defend the nerfs to the slow. Looks really, really bad on paper. I'll give it another try whenever the PBE comes back up so I can test the kit some more, but I do not anticipate great results.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-22-2013

The PBE is now up with the Skarner rework. Go nuts everyone.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Well, in addition to fixing the ult and increasing the movement speed on the shield, it removes the heal (which is partially addressed by the shield strength and CD improvements, which also increases the speed uptime), it modiefies the Attack Speed (24% with 1% base reduction is slower than 50%, but the shield always broke instantly so you can actually use the Attack Speed late game), and the slow.... um, the slow... well, I can't defend the nerfs to the slow. Looks really, really bad on paper. I'll give it another try whenever the PBE comes back up so I can test the kit some more, but I do not anticipate great results.
I saw the heal healing 70 hp with only Sheen as extra ap and spirit visage against 1 target tonight. The shield was only buffed by 30 at rank 5. Them telling us they buffed the shield to counteract the nerf of the heal is pretty much bogus 100%.


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AndeGame

Member

11-22-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
I usually play top lane Skarner when I play him, but have played him jungle as well. I love his ult when pulled off properly & spamming his Q every time it's off cooldown. Mixing that with his W makes him an unstoppable chasing machine (battlecast skarner please).

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Sometimes his ult doesn't go off correctly & the heal on his E is very minimal, unless you build AP/Spirit Visage. But... that's not the best way to build a Skarner. Also, whether I'm top or jungle, I feel like I need blue buff to be able to spam efficiently. Otherwise, I run out of mana very quickly. I guess I could build a manamune, but that would get rid of a tank item possibly needed.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Being the target of the entire enemy team plus him ulting on me is almost instadeath, but that's just Skarner being himself.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
There're much better champions that have early ganking, Skarner is one of those junglers that aren't effective until 6 due to his ult.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
I saw the heal healing 70 hp with only Sheen as extra ap and spirit visage against 1 target tonight. The shield was only buffed by 30 at rank 5. Them telling us they buffed the shield to counteract the nerf of the heal is pretty much bogus 100%.
Let me clarify: the health lost does mean that Skarner will always be less tanky. This is true. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's more true than your example would testify to. I can usually hit an average of 3 targets per E in a teamfight, and popping the marks kind of comes naturally, particularly if you have an Elder Lizard (although I guess that doesn't synergize with the E anymore). However, the shield being tankier and having a shorter CD means that the movement speed will be up more often. That may or may not be a favorable tradeoff, but it is worth noting that the health isn't the only variable in that particular exchange.

But yeah, new Skarner pretty much gonna be a bit less tanky at all points of the game.


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Shahamut

Senior Member

11-22-2013

someone want to share their PbE account so I can actually play the new skarner? :P

Seriously though, on paper I am really not impressed with the new skarner. The ranged slow has more utility in possibly allowing early ganks, but I dont see right now how he is going to stick to people. :/


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Rimora

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Senior Member

11-22-2013

This is old, but still relevant IMO, so I'll give my input after listening to many people call him a cockroach in his recent free week.

Fun parts:
Pulling people around
Shielding self
Making self faster
Being a scorpion
Sufficient pulling power

Unfun parts:
Not tanky enough
TOO SLOW
TOO SLOW
TOO SLOW
TOO SLOW
TOO SLOW
TOO SLOW
TOO SLOW
Not enough shield powah
Slightly insufficient delay between pulling people around, but generally OK
Everything else

... I might be biased, though.