Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Karede

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post

The thing is, building CDR isn't the uncommon choice among professionals or diamond tier players. It's the norm. Among the players who have played hundreds or even thousands of games of Skarner, CDR early tends to be very common. Now, do they rush as much CDR as me? Usually no. I'm in a minority of players who often rush full CDR instead of sitting on 20-30% for a while first. However, it is rare to see a Skarner in top-tier reach the latter midgame without the Skarner having at least 20-30% cdr. This isn't the mistake of a few bad players: It's the norm among the top-tier Skarner players, and I can tell you the reason: when you have a source of CDR that can be increased in frequency by the presence of %CDR, then you actually get more efficiency out of CDR. Because tanky CDR items not only increase the number of his shields, but also increase the duration of the shields, they can equal significantly increased spell dps. Now, I'm not telling you to change your build: one of the great things about Skarner is how much build variety he has (the most prolific Skarner player in EUW right now gets Elder Lizard in all of his games and Black Cleaver in about half of them (as far as I can tell), another builds Lizard -> Aegis -> sunfire/frozen mallet very often, and the two big Diamond 1/challenger Skarner mains in NA (that I've seen) both swear by heavy CDR). If you build works for you, that's fine. That's the important part. However, I am telling you that in my experience, and the experience of many Skarner mains who are better on this champion than either of us, CDR is a very potent build. I don't think dismissing the potential of it offhand is the right thing to do. I also think it would unreasonable to expect me to follow suit based on your word alone.
You're changing your argument now. If they snag a bit of cooldown as they build their guy, that's a lot different than rushing it. You get 10% free out of your jungle item. One more item like spirit visage brings you to 30. I understand once you get to plat 3-1 it's a lot more rare to get ahead of everybody by 2 levels, so getting triforce wouldn't be happening 80% of the time anymore. That's not rushing cooldown, nor is it focusing on it. I bet the good ones get Shurelia's before they get 40% CDR.

Professional and diamond tier players rarely play Skarner. Shoot, PEOPLE rarely play Skarner. Where are you getting your stats for Skarners that have thousands of games played on him this season? I watch lots of games, and every time I see Skarner in one I get pretty darn attentive. Haven't seen anything that changes my mind. Most of em aren't even that great.

I bet most people with 2500~ games have played against a challenger tier player. Matchmaking does some weird things sometimes. I had a game against 2 2300+ elo guys and my team was all around 1600 once. Lol. Some people who know how to make plays have got fed against them. It happens, it's not that amazing. You just gotta know your stuff and know how to make plays. You'd be shocked how human those guys are. It's almost like they are normal people.. !!!!!!!!

Your math is genius, except it only works in situations again. The shield gets popped too easy to give consistent, dependable damage. (which you would know if you play Skarner a lot.) O well, at least it looks good on paper.

Nautalis has the same dreamy look on paper. "Well I should just get beefy with some attack speed, then my shield will do crazy damage in team fights!!" Well ya, if pigs started flying and that shield didn't get popped right away, that theory might just work.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-18-2013

What do you know, I pop on league and see a Skarner game going. Skarnold Trump rushes his jungle item and boots, goes 4-0-4. Playing against Zuna and Scarra. He got 2 levels ahead of most people, 1 level ahead of everybody.. What does he rush? TRIFOCE. What does he start immediately after that? RANDUIN'S OMEN.... He finishes 9-0-8 in a 27 minute game.. 4 minutes before you'd have your troll build even rolling yet.. Not a single freakin CDR item on the champ. The freakin EXACT build that I've been talking about on here for a week.

How did he get there? PERMASLOW on ganks and a couple skirmishes...

I'll give you this. You successfully trolled me for quite a while. You did great: mission accomplished and I salute you. You honestly had me going.

So... Can you PLEASE stop trolling the Skarner rework thread? People who know wtf they are talking about and play it a lot want to talk to the developers about it so we can rescue our favorite champion.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
You're changing your argument now. If they snag a bit of cooldown as they build their guy, that's a lot different than rushing it. You get 10% free out of your jungle item. One more item like spirit visage brings you to 30. I understand once you get to plat 3-1 it's a lot more rare to get ahead of everybody by 2 levels, so getting triforce wouldn't be happening 80% of the time anymore. That's not rushing cooldown, nor is it focusing on it. I bet the good ones get Shurelia's before they get 40% CDR.

Professional and diamond tier players rarely play Skarner. Where are you getting your stats for Skarners that have thousands of games played on him this season? I watch lots of games, and every time I see Skarner in one I get pretty darn attentive. Haven't seen anything that changes my mind. Most of em aren't even that great.

I bet most people with 2500~ games have played against a challenger tier player. Some people have got fed against them. It happens, it's not that amazing. You just gotta know your stuff.

Your math is genius, except it only works in situations again. The shield gets popped too easy to give consistent, dependable damage. (which you would know if you play Skarner a lot.) O well, at least it looks good on paper.

Nautalis has the same dreamy look on paper. "Well I should just get beefy with some attack speed, then my shield will do crazy damage in team fights!!" Well ya, if pigs started flying and that shield didn't get popped right away, that theory might just work.
I haven't changed my argument. My argument is, and was, a response to your claim that CDR is "worthless" on Skarner. My counteraction to that argument is presenting evidence that almost all high-tier Skarner players seek out at least 20-30% CDR reasonably early in their builds. This is my evidence that CDR is actually good, and not "worthless" as you claimed it was. You actually argued that Spirit Visage shouldn't be purchased when Banshee's veil could be, remember? If that is true, then we wouldn't expect to see the good majority of players. Now, I am also making a separate argument that CDR is beneficial to the degree that making 40% CDR a primary goal of your build is worthwhile. That is more what the math was aimed at addressing.

I do find it slightly that you're using Shurelya's as something built instead of CDR when it actually provides CDR. I actually do want to make a note about Shurelya's. I actually saw it in significantly fewer of the Pro builds than I expected. From what I could tell, a good number of them seemed to build it only after completing at least 3 other items. Consequentially, many games seem to be finished before the item is bought. I just want to make note of it because it's actually sightly unexpected for me. When I've used Shurelya's, I've generally liked it as a third item following Golem/Lizard spirit and either a Sheen or offtank item so I can use it to make midgame plays. I can imagine that players might not like that getting it tends to overload you with regen when combined with a spirit item, but the lack of presence of that item surprised me nonetheless.

I got my information about builds primarily by looking up the most prolific Skarner players on Lolking. If you got to the champion screen, you can look at the statistics of a champion, and one of the things they measure is which players have played the most ranked games with a champion this season. I looked at that with a filter that gave preference for Diamond and Challenger players. I also used the spectate anyone client to observe some of those players in game. Getting all this info from streams... Ugh. That would take so long, and there would be no way of knowing if the person you're watching is just playing Skarner because they feel like doing something different that day. Not worth it.

You may want to reread my mathematics, because they don't actually assume the shield holds against enemy autoattacks. I actually assumed the opposite. For the purposes of the example, my situation imagined that the steroid on the shield would provide almost no benefit to Skarner's spell DPS. The increase in spell DPS for 40% CDR is 66%. That's just how CDR works on every champion. I made the assumption that the shield would be popped quickly enough that it would only boost the for spell DPS up to 70% of the base. This means that my calculations were based on the assumption that you would get no more than 1-2 autos off before the shield is popped. The assumption I made erred rather far towards the pessimistic side. We should actually expect the shield to contribute more in a realistic situation than it did in my scenario. Your Nautilus example is based on the presumption that the shield holds. Mine is based on the presumption that the shield will break. With that in mind, you should give the math a closer look.

I do not believe you have played against a challenger tier player. Matchmaking tends to avoid placing golds with people ranked that much higher. Also, even assuming that you have beaten a challenger in a game, that demonstrates nothing of value for your arguments. It would only prove that any individual one is fallible, which is to be expected, but it does not change the preponderance of evidence showing your "CDR is worthless" claim to be untrue.

The fact that you claim to have watched multiple high level Skarner players and that you have been unswayed by their choices says very little to me about the viability of their builds or actions in-game. For that to matter, I would have to assume that you possessed a greater credibility than any other random Skarner player I may happen to be talking to. Given the lack of any obvious credentials, I can't do that.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
What do you know, I pop on league and see a Skarner game going. Skarnold Trump rushes his jungle item and boots, goes 4-0-4. Playing against Zuna and Scarra. He got 2 levels ahead of most people, 1 level ahead of everybody.. What does he rush? TRIFOCE. What does he start immediately after that? RANDUIN'S OMEN.... He finishes 9-0-8 in a 27 minute game.. 4 minutes before you'd have your troll build even rolling yet.. Not a single freakin CDR item on the champ. The freakin EXACT build that I've been talking about on here for a week.

How did he get there? PERMASLOW on ganks and a couple skirmishes...

I'll give you this. You successfully trolled me for quite a while. You did great: mission accomplished and I salute you. You honestly had me going.

So... Can you PLEASE stop trolling the Skarner rework thread? People who know wtf they are talking about and play it a lot want to talk to the developers about it so we can rescue our favorite champion.
You've taken one example of a game, and you've used that to ignore the number of players I've pointed out that do make CDR a focus of their build. You stated earlier that I couldn't take a single game or player and make conclusions about the overall balance of certain builds based on that (although I actually drew evidence from multiple players). Now, you've done exactly what you've accused me of doing. Tell me, what legitimacy should I take from this argument? Whether Triforce is strong or weak or Randuin's Omen is good or bad on Skarner, your argument proves precisely nothing because it consists of one data point. You know this. You've acknowledged it before. Do you really think that stooping to this is even remotely persuasive?

Also, you do realize that the person you've chosen as your example has played precisely 19 Skarner games this season, right? If you're trying to find someone to make an argument from authority, you may want someone who actually mains Skarner.

I'm not going to stop responding on this thread. As I've said before, I don't think you're engaging in actual analysis so much as you're engaging in demagoguery. As such, when you make a claim that is false, I'm not going to ignore it. The reason isn't to troll, but to improve our chances of actually getting a favorable resolution to the problem. You are convinced that if Riot sees acknowledgement of minor positive points to the rework, then they will stick with it. As a result, you have to portray everything in a negative light, at risk of defeating your own cause. I am instead convinced that if we can't acknowledge what the potential effects of the rework will be, then we're not going to be able to persuade anyone that we actually understand it well enough to state with authority that it is a bad idea. As I've said before, we share the same ultimate goal, although I am fairly certain that your method of argument doesn't actually have the potential to persuade people.

If you're really convinced that this discussion is harming your chances of getting rid of Skarner's rework, then just stop responding to me. It's the easiest way to ensure I don't respond to you. This has been back and forth between us for quite a while now. You're an equal participant. If you choose to stop responding, I'm not going to try to force conversations with you. I'll respect your decision, and I'll begin responding to you the same way I respond to everyone else: rarely-if-ever. I can promise you that. If you really wish to cease the discussion, feel free to simply stop responding.

Edit: On second thought, since you actually did just make the request that I stop responding, I'll take the initiative here and I'll end the discussion here. You seem to want the discussion to be over, and you don't seem to want to be the one to actually end it, so I'll end it for you. I promise I won't respond to your next posts unless you ask me to. You can have the last word, if that's important, or you can just choose not to respond here. Either way is good. I do encourage you to look over the CDR math again though, because your misunderstanding of the assumptions made about the shield does change the results of that math rather significantly.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
The thing is, building CDR isn't the uncommon choice among professionals or diamond tier players. It's the norm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
My counteraction to that argument is presenting evidence that almost all high-tier Skarner players seek out at least 20-30% CDR reasonably early in their builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
You've taken one example of a game, and you've used that to ignore the number of players I've pointed out that do make CDR a focus of their build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
As such, when you make a claim that is false, I'm not going to ignore it.
An interesting quote, that last one.

I looked up the guys who have played the most Skarner according to LoLking, the source you are getting your stats from, the source you said that everybody is rushing CDR on. I found something very interesting.


ZurixDrdoo, most games on Skarner, Rushes Trifoce when he gets fed. no CDR except what he got out of Iceborn Gauntlets which he builds occassionally in all the matches shown. I dunno why people get Iceborn on Skarner currently. Seems like a waste of money, but whatever. Would love to see the champs he builds that against. Diamond 3 player.

SKARY 75XIX, 2nd most games on Skarner. Absolutely no extra CDR on any matches shown.

DasBakterium: rushes Triforce and my build when he gets fed, turns his sheen into a iceborn gauntlet to get tanky when he has a rough game.

OldLooker: weird troll build Skarner that involves either rod of ages or manamune. He builds Frozen heart a lot, and also has one of the worst KDA ratio out of all the Skarners I looked at

GeneralKnox: Rushes triforce when he does well, goes tanky and might turn his sheen (if he bought it) into iceborn.

Hermogen: Rushes Triforce

Venniz: On a losing streak that would make me pull my hair out, but rushes out Sheen, gets wits end some. Only has one match with a piece that suggests Iceborn Gauntlets, and that's the only match with any CDR. 2100+ Lolking score.

Anaryus: Finally. Somebody who builds CDR like you suggest. He's also got the worst win % out of everybody I listed here on Skarner. He's also only Plat 4 with 1500~ games played. Bad example for you, great example for me.



There are only 7 Skarners that qualify as "Most games played" summoners above 2k, and only 1 of them builds CDR... If you are looking at the total stats column that includes all the Skarners with 1000~ ranked games on him and are still in bronze, well then LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL at your ability to interpret statistics.

Man, WHAT THE F ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Put some gum in your mouth if you can't stop your damn jaw from flapping, but kindly keep your unintelligent, uneducated, rediculous advice about how to play out of this rework thread.


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LulzSec

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
An interesting quote, that last one.

I looked up the guys who have played the most Skarner according to LoLking, the source you are getting your stats from, the source you said that everybody is rushing CDR on. I found something very interesting.


ZurixDrdoo, most games on Skarner, Rushes Trifoce when he gets fed. no CDR except what he got out of Iceborn Gauntlets which he builds occassionally in all the matches shown. I dunno why people get Iceborn on Skarner currently. Seems like a waste of money, but whatever. Would love to see the champs he builds that against. Diamond 3 player.

SKARY 75XIX, 2nd most games on Skarner. Absolutely no extra CDR on any matches shown.

DasBakterium: rushes Triforce and my build when he gets fed, turns his sheen into a iceborn gauntlet to get tanky when he has a rough game.

OldLooker: weird troll build Skarner that involves either rod of ages or manamune. He builds Frozen heart a lot, and also has one of the worst KDA ratio out of all the Skarners I looked at

GeneralKnox: Rushes triforce when he does well, goes tanky and might turn his sheen (if he bought it) into iceborn.

Hermogen: Rushes Triforce

Venniz: On a losing streak that would make me pull my hair out, but rushes out Sheen, gets wits end some. Only has one match with a piece that suggests Iceborn Gauntlets, and that's the only match with any CDR. 2100+ Lolking score.

Anaryus: Finally. Somebody who builds CDR like you suggest. He's also got the worst win % out of everybody I listed here on Skarner. He's also only Plat 4 with 1500~ games played. Bad example for you, great example for me.



There are only 7 Skarners that qualify as "Most games played" summoners above 2k, and only 1 of them builds CDR... If you are looking at the total stats column that includes all the Skarners with 1000~ ranked games on him and are still in bronze, well then LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL at your ability to interpret statistics.

Man, WHAT THE F ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? There are only two reasonable options for what you are doing here: you're a either freakin liar or a troll. Put some gum in your mouth if you can't stop your damn jaw from flapping, but kindly keep your unintelligent, uneducated, rediculous advice about how to play out of this rework thread.
You've done your research, but most games =/= best players...

I have a higher LKS than anyone on the summoners list for Skarner. I have a higher win/rate and KDA with skarner than anyone on that list, and all of my games have been Diamond 1. I build Triforce and CDR. My runes, masteries and build is different from everyone on that list. I don't want this to sound like I'm just bragging, but you can't use that as your only source. And you can't base an argument completely off of it and act like your opinion is correct.

Skarner has a number of possible builds; none of them are right or wrong, it depends on the playstyle of the player and the champions in the game. My build doesn't deviate very much, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't change it on the spot if necessary.

Dig a little deeper before you call people out like that, it makes you look arrogant.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LulzSec View Post
You've done your research, but most games =/= best players...

I have a higher LKS than anyone on the summoners list for Skarner. I have a higher win/rate and KDA with skarner than anyone on that list, and all of my games have been Diamond 1. I build Triforce and CDR. My runes, masteries and build is different from everyone on that list. I don't want this to sound like I'm just bragging, but you can't use that as your only source. And you can't base an argument completely off of it and act like your opinion is correct.

Skarner has a number of possible builds; none of them are right or wrong, it depends on the playstyle of the player and the champions in the game. My build doesn't deviate very much, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't change it on the spot if necessary.

Dig a little deeper before you call people out like that, it makes you look arrogant.
Man, the LAST thing I am implying is that most games played had anything at ask to do with actual skill.

Sight less had been spouting garbage about how since cool down is a staple on all great skarner builds, this Nerf of a truth will eng up helping skarner. I'm arrogant about being smarter than this guy. Which is kinda like winning the special olympics in a twenty family town..

He used the source and threw it in my face. I looked up his source and pointed out how flawed his statements were. been listening to his garbage for a week..

But thanks for the post. Why are you wasting money on cool down instead of durability and extra utility?


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APrinnyDood

Junior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
An interesting quote, that last one.

I looked up the guys who have played the most Skarner according to LoLking, the source you are getting your stats from, the source you said that everybody is rushing CDR on. I found something very interesting.


ZurixDrdoo, most games on Skarner, Rushes Trifoce when he gets fed. no CDR except what he got out of Iceborn Gauntlets which he builds occassionally in all the matches shown. I dunno why people get Iceborn on Skarner currently. Seems like a waste of money, but whatever. Would love to see the champs he builds that against. Diamond 3 player.

SKARY 75XIX, 2nd most games on Skarner. Absolutely no extra CDR on any matches shown.

DasBakterium: rushes Triforce and my build when he gets fed, turns his sheen into a iceborn gauntlet to get tanky when he has a rough game.

OldLooker: weird troll build Skarner that involves either rod of ages or manamune. He builds Frozen heart a lot, and also has one of the worst KDA ratio out of all the Skarners I looked at

GeneralKnox: Rushes triforce when he does well, goes tanky and might turn his sheen (if he bought it) into iceborn.

Hermogen: Rushes Triforce

Venniz: On a losing streak that would make me pull my hair out, but rushes out Sheen, gets wits end some. Only has one match with a piece that suggests Iceborn Gauntlets, and that's the only match with any CDR. 2100+ Lolking score.

Anaryus: Finally. Somebody who builds CDR like you suggest. He's also got the worst win % out of everybody I listed here on Skarner. He's also only Plat 4 with 1500~ games played. Bad example for you, great example for me.



There are only 7 Skarners that qualify as "Most games played" summoners above 2k, and only 1 of them builds CDR... If you are looking at the total stats column that includes all the Skarners with 1000~ ranked games on him and are still in bronze, well then LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL at your ability to interpret statistics.

Man, WHAT THE F ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? Put some gum in your mouth if you can't stop your damn jaw from flapping, but kindly keep your unintelligent, uneducated, rediculous advice about how to play out of this rework thread.
I looked up a few of the Diamond 1 and Challenger Skarner players, like Good Guy Garry and DasBakterium. They've both got a few games where they've got a lot of CDR. That kind of proves your main argument wrong. I mean, the big thing the dude you're responding to said was that you were wrong when you said CDR was worthless, and to be honest, it looks like you are. His mega CDR build isn't a great option either, but that doesn't make you any less wrong when you argue CDR is useless. Own up to having been overargumentative. Also, you've got some serious anger issues man. You've got to keep your cool better, because this right here is making you look kinda weak. Either he is a troll, and you're just falling right into it, or he's got a different opinion than yours, and you're going off the hook because someone disagrees with you. Lose/lose if you ask me. If you really think you're smarter, act like it.

@Lulzsec

I think he was arguming based on the people who had played Skarner the most because that's what the other guy was doing. Not the best argument for either of them to use, but it does make sense why he'd do it. Do you know any other top-tier Skarner players these two could look at to get a better idea of what the most common builds are? It might get them both to go very far away for a while.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by APrinnyDood View Post
I looked up a few of the Diamond 1 and Challenger Skarner players, like Good Guy Garry and DasBakterium. They've both got a few games where they've got a lot of CDR. That kind of proves your main argument wrong. I mean, the big thing the dude you're responding to said was that you were wrong when you said CDR was worthless, and to be honest, it looks like you are. His mega CDR build may not be the best option either, but that doesn't make you any less wrong about the other thing you said. Own up to having been overargumentative. Also, you've got some serious anger issues man. You've got to keep your cool better, because this right here is making you look kinda weak. Either he is a troll, and you're just falling right into it, or he's got a different opinion than yours, and you're going off the hook because someone disagrees with you. Lose/lose if you ask me.

@Lulzsec

I think he was arguming based on the people who had played Skarner the most because that's what the other guy was doing. Not the best argument for either of them to use, but it does make sense why he'd do it. Do you know any other top-tier Skarner players these two could look at to get a better idea of what the most common builds are? It might get them both to go away for a while.

I definitely over exaggerate for effect. No doubt. He said building massive cool down is the norm. It's not.

A few is not "staple". Free cool down as you build is a lot different than building specific for it. das seemed to build ice born randomly while other times with a similar score not. He didn't build Cdr all the time. Wish I could see the make up of his team and his opponents to infer why.

Also, my point had stayed consistent. This rework is a flat Nerf that crushes what current Skarner makes his living out of.


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LulzSec

Senior Member

11-18-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Man, the LAST thing I am implying is that most games played had anything at ask to do with actual skill.

Sight less had been spouting garbage about how since cool down is a staple on all great skarner builds, this Nerf of a truth will eng up helping skarner. I'm arrogant about being smarter than this guy. Which is kinda like winning the special olympics in a twenty family town..

He used the source and threw it in my face. I looked up his source and pointed out how flawed his statements were. been listening to his garbage for a week..

But thanks for the post. Why are you wasting money on cool down instead of durability and extra utility?
Frozen heart = CDR, utility and durability. And it's one of the most gold efficient items, not to mention it is the perfect item on Skarner. Shurelia's is really garbage on him tbh, he has plenty of speed. I don't even run MS quints anymore, I'm still the fastest in the game. I'm currently 11-1 with him, 5.0+kda every game at D1 (even in the game I lost). If people put the kind of effort I did into Skarner instead of using the same build that was nerfed, they'd realize he wasn't ****. Part of it is because I have the experience with Skarner; I have had a few friends in D1 try my setup and do alright with it but say it felt weird. I've played it enough to know what I can and can't do with it. It works for me, and I bet it will work for someone who puts some effort into it.

For those interested: http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/21010164