Skarner, I miss your kind

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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
"OR you could tie the movement speed into the E as well, therefore giving the movement speed for a set amount of time"

Do you mean giving Skarner the movement speed when he pops a mark, or on cast of the E, or just as a passive increase?



See, this is why I keep arguing with you. You can't acknowledge that there are any situations where a ranged slow has utility that a melee slow doesn't. Not only does it have utility in teamfights, but it is also useful for slowing someone so you can get in range for a pick-off ultimate.
I mean when you hit your E, you get your movespeed increase. Like teemo, basically.

There are no situations where a ranged slow has utility OVER a permaslow, because of WHAT YOU HAD TO GIVE UP to get the cruddy ranged slow. Opportunity cost is what you cannot grasp. You are giving up far too much to have a microscopic benefit in very specific situations. Plus, 2.0 seconds of slow is freakin ****, especially at 50%. If it were a 90% slow, we could talk about it. It's not, so we can't. If they made his E some sort of leap/gapcloser with burst on it, then Skarner would have an identifying skill. They didn't. He doesn't. You're so microscopically correct that it's more accurate to say you are wrong.

"well heck, at least he didn't come in and murder BOTH my kids, amiright?" That's what you're saying.. You're so optimistic it boarders on being a lunatic. What I'm saying is "I sure wish Scruffy wouldn't come in and murder my kid."


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Shahamut View Post
Sightless, just stop arguing with this guy. I don't think he notices that he defeats his own arguments (in a very technical sense, which means he just isn't thinking) with his own words.

On an off topic: What do you think of the new masteries? I think they will work well with the way I like to play Skarner, assuming he doesnt change anyway.
How do I defeat my own argument? If I say it's not worth it to spend 30 minutes building CDR on a guy with no great skill, how is that defeating my own argument? I've broken down 10-14 different champions and demonstrated that Skarner's slow will be inferior to all of them.. How is that not being directly accurate in a technical sense?

All the other champs I can think of got flat out -better- with their rework. Most of them got so much better they needed to be nerfed later. In this case, they are making Skarner clearly worse, with the mild, 5% stipulation that if you what your team really needs is a crappy ranged slow, little to no damage, and a whopping 24% attack speed, he'll be perfect.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahamut View Post
Sightless, just stop arguing with this guy. I don't think he notices that he defeats his own arguments (in a very technical sense, which means he just isn't thinking) with his own words.

On an off topic: What do you think of the new masteries? I think they will work well with the way I like to play Skarner, assuming he doesnt change anyway.
Placing flat movement speed, effective flat CDR and late-game tank masteries at the bottom of their respective trees will probably give Skarner some more flexibility in his mastery choices. Being able to spec into defense and get better access to cc-resistant masteries or getting utility for CDR and out-of-combat movement speed are both reasonably good choices. The only thing I'm uncertain about is how the offense tree will fit into his build. On one hand, the masteries that focus on hybrid damage (hybrid penetration, the synergistic masteries for autos and spells) will work really well on Skarner, but I'm uncertain that he can afford to give up the other options to access them. I could see it working for a top-lane Skarner who can afford more of a tanky carry build than a full tank semi-carry one.

In any case, the easier access to masteries that reduce cc effects and give MS should be nothing but beneficial to Skarner, and I think he stands to make better usage of them than his competition will. So, overall, I'm quite happy with the prospective changes.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Placing flat movement speed, effective flat CDR and late-game tank masteries at the bottom of their respective trees will probably give Skarner some more flexibility in his mastery choices. Being able to spec into defense and get better access to cc-resistant masteries or getting utility for CDR and out-of-combat movement speed are both reasonably good choices. The only thing I'm uncertain about is how the offense tree will fit into his build. On one hand, the masteries that focus on hybrid damage (hybrid penetration, the synergistic masteries for autos and spells) will work really well on Skarner, but I'm uncertain that he can afford to give up the other options to access them. I could see it working for a top-lane Skarner who can afford more of a tanky carry build than a full tank semi-carry one.

In any case, the easier access to masteries that reduce cc effects and give MS should be nothing but beneficial to Skarner, and I think he stands to make better usage of them than his competition will. So, overall, I'm quite happy with the prospective changes.
.... .... ... Skarner needs movement speed, durability, and attack speed out of his masteries.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Karede View Post
I mean when you hit your E, you get your movespeed increase. Like teemo, basically.

There are no situations where a ranged slow has utility OVER a permaslow, because of WHAT YOU HAD TO GIVE UP to get the cruddy ranged slow
Like Teemo? Teemo gets a movement speed increase passively or for using his W. Are you saying that when Skarner activates his E he would get movement speed? Hmm. The movement speed activating when you use the E would be possible, but having movement speed come from two different parts of his kit doesn't seem like the best solution to the problem to me. The idea of passive movement speed doesn't seem like a particularly elegant solution either. If we want to buff his movement speed, I think just using the reworked W on the live kit would be more effective. I'll think more about it.

I would like to modify your statement. It should instead be "there are situations where a ranged slow has utility over a permaslow, but there are a significantly greater number of situations where a permaslow has utility over a ranged slow". That statement would fit with the idea of an opportunity cost. Yours doesn't.

Opportunity cost is the cost that you endure in exchange for getting something else. In order for it to exist, there has to be some value in the greatest possible alternative choice (which in this case is the rework). What you are doing is refusing to acknowledge any value Skarner is getting in exchange for the permaslow loss. If it is true that "There are no situations where a ranged slow has utility OVER a permaslow" then there is no value to the alternative. You use the term opportunity cost, but what you are arguing is that Skarner is not suffering an unfavorable opportunity cost, but that he is instead suffering a straight loss. What I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get you to do is acknowledge that there actually is an opportunity cost here. In order to do that, you just have to acknowledge that there are some situations where a ranged slow is better than a melee permaslow, and then say that those situations are outweighed by the number of situations where a melee permaslow outvalues a ranged slow. Then, you have opportunity cost.

Also, you've been saying that the reworked slow has a 2.0 duration a lot lately, which interests me because your past posts have the correct duration of 2.5 seconds of slow. What changed?


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
.... .... ... Skarner needs movement speed, durability, and attack speed out of his masteries.
Movement speed and durability yes. Attack speed... that's debatable in comparison to CDR. 1% CDR tends to hold more value than 1% AS. Both might be considered somewhat useless in comparison to the early defensive or utility masteries now that penetration has been moved deeper into the offensive tree. I'm uncertain how the 5 flat AD or 8 flat AP for 9 offense points will measure up to the options from the other trees. With that said, the durability and movement speed (and CC-resistant) masteries have gotten better and more accessible, which benefits Skarner.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Like Teemo? Teemo gets a movement speed increase passively or for using his W. Are you saying that when Skarner activates his E he would get movement speed? Hmm. The movement speed activating when you use the E would be possible, but having movement speed come from two different parts of his kit doesn't seem like the best solution to the problem to me. The idea of passive movement speed doesn't seem like a particularly elegant solution either. If we want to buff his movement speed, I think just using the reworked W on the live kit would be more effective. I'll think more about it.

I would like to modify your statement. It should instead be "there are situations where a ranged slow has utility over a permaslow, but there are a significantly greater number of situations where a permaslow has utility over a ranged slow". That statement would fit with the idea of an opportunity cost. Yours doesn't.

Opportunity cost is the cost that you endure in exchange for getting something else. In order for it to exist, there has to be some value in the greatest possible alternative choice (which in this case is the rework). What you are doing is refusing to acknowledge any value Skarner is getting in exchange for the permaslow loss. If it is true that "There are no situations where a ranged slow has utility OVER a permaslow" then there is no value to the alternative. You use the term opportunity cost, but what you are arguing is that Skarner is not suffering an unfavorable opportunity cost, but that he is instead suffering a straight loss. What I am trying (unsuccessfully) to get you to do is acknowledge that there actually is an opportunity cost here. In order to do that, you just have to acknowledge that there are some situations where a ranged slow is better than a melee permaslow, and then say that those situations are outweighed by the number of situations where a melee permaslow outvalues a ranged slow. Then, you have opportunity cost.
Thanks for the wikipedia definition, professor. Why don't you keep telling people that Skarner will be ok so he stays nerfed into oblivion just for the opportunity to seem right when you flap your lips? This isn't an English 102 class, if my grammer isn't 100% perfect, Idgaf.

CDR is GARBAGE on Skarner now, it will be GARBAGE on the reworked Skarner.. WHY? Because even though you can do your skills all the time, NOBODY FREAKIN CARES cause none of your skills are any good.

The OPPORTUNITY COST of a ranged slow on Skarner with 40% CDR, is the COST OF HIM BEING ANY GOOD AT ALL.. THEREFORE: it is NOT accurate to say that a ranged slow will help Skarner. Ever. It's not accurate to say that. It's disingenuous. "Yes, but.. but, I can slow from range!!!!" WHO FREAKIN CARES? Your ganks were garbage, your early game was garbage, your mid-game was garbage, and your late game, in comparison to basically any other champ out of the jungle, is straight up garbage. Your carries aren't as fed, cause your ganks sucked. Your top isn't as fed, cause you couldn't help him kill the tanky dps. You didn't cause any havoc midgame, because, well, you can't.

Every post that Scruffy sees with people saying "Skarner might be ok" just reinforces his opinion that he did a good job. He did NOT do a good job. Stop reinforcing the idea that this change is going to be ok, or that it makes Skarner more viable. IT DOES NOT.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Movement speed and durability yes. Attack speed... that's debatable in comparison to CDR. 1% CDR tends to hold more value than 1% AS. Both might be considered somewhat useless in comparison to the early defensive or utility masteries now that penetration has been moved deeper into the offensive tree. I'm uncertain how the 5 flat AD or 8 flat AP for 9 offense points will measure up to the options from the other trees. With that said, the durability and movement speed (and CC-resistant) masteries have gotten better and more accessible, which benefits Skarner.
Skarner does not need CDR.. He's got a passive that takes care of his CDR problem for his Q. Anything more is a waste of money.

Why don't you talk about your uber 50% CDR build again. It's genius.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Like Teemo? Teemo gets a movement speed increase passively or for using his W. Are you saying that when Skarner activates his E he would get movement speed? Hmm. The movement speed activating when you use the E would be possible, but having movement speed come from two different parts of his kit doesn't seem like the best solution to the problem to me. The idea of passive movement speed doesn't seem like a particularly elegant solution either. If we want to buff his movement speed, I think just using the reworked W on the live kit would be more effective. I'll think more about it.
Having 2 movement speed areas is not good. I meant moving it from W, which can be popped, to an activated skill, which can't be popped. No, I didn't say you need to activate the mark. I said you need to activate the skill. That would be a reasonable buff for his gap closing problem.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

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Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Having 2 movement speed areas is not good. I meant moving it from W, which can be popped, to an activated skill, which can't be popped. No, I didn't say you need to activate the mark. I said you need to activate the skill. That would be a reasonable buff for his gap closing problem.
Ah, I see. That's more clear. That is a possiblity, although it seems like the main effect of that is just to make the movement speed buff impossible to break. If that is the goal, we could just make the movement speed on the shield not break when the shield is broken, which would help us avoid overloading the E.