Skarner, I miss your kind

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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
If you aren't able to stick to 1-2 champions chasing your ADC, you just MIGHT be a terrible Skarner. I haven't had that problem ever, and I've played well over 1,000 games on him.
That wasn't what I was trying to say. The advantage that Skarner gains in the rework is to be able to stick to one target that you are sticking to while also slowing another target who is further away. For example, if you decide to help an assassin dive the enemy ADC by charging in and ulting them, you can use the range of the slow to simultaneously putting a slow on the enemy Renekton going for your carry. Alternatively, you could slow the enemy Renekton, and line up the direction of your slow to hit the enemy Orianna on the other side of the fight running from your Jax.

Do you really think I would say that Skarner has a problem sticking to 1-2 champions? I actually said that this was an area where he would be weakened by the rework. I know you don't particularly like me, but you can at least give me the credit of assuming that I haven't forgotten my own arguments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Skarner does fine in competitive play if people know how to use him. You shouldn't pick him if they pick 3 champs that can leap away from him and a lux, but if you're picking anything but first or (maybe) second, and know what you are doing, he's amazing.
To make it clear, when I say competitive play, I mean professional play. Skarner has been a complete non-presence in the professional scene ever since the Season 3 item changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
If his skirmishing and ganks got a lot worse, Skarner will be less geared for the team fights you are talking about, thus diminishing his potential at everything you are talking about.
Yep. That's true. Skarner's decreased skirmishing and chasing potential will make it much more difficult for him to have a positive effect on games. If he reaches the endgame with the same items (as will happen on occasion), then he will be better equipped for teamfighting. However, the loss in power from the weaker midgame is likely to hold him back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Khazix needed a nerf because he was freakin OP. Your example is rediculous.
The example wasn't meant to address why Kha'zix needed to be nerfed. That was irrelevant to the point I was making. The point was that we can say definitively that Kha'zix was nerfed even though there was an area where he actually gained strength. That's exactly what I've been saying about Skarner here. Even though Skarner is being nerfed overall, there is still an area where he gains strength. That is literally all I am saying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Everything you are saying is situational. There are 10~ other champions that would utilize your CDR argument more effectively than Skarner in a team fight who add similar elements to a team fight: peeling with a slow for carries.
I'm uncertain of what exactly you're trying to say. I know that my teamfighting argument is situational: that was the entire point of it. Also, Skarner does utilitze CDR more effectively than most other champions because of his passive. The fact that other champions use CDR well also doesn't change that. I'm not sure what exactly you're getting at here, so I'm going to hold back on a response for now. Can you clear this up a little?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
My goal is to demonstrate to Scruffy that ignoring Skarner's rework thread won't stop people who love this champion from being upset that he is demolishing our favorite champion. Your goal seems to be befriending Scruffy so he talks about potential other buffs. I don't want other buffs. I don't want Skarner to be picked so often he starts to be banned quite a bit again. I think he is strong enough that he should be banned right now. If they buff his team fights, he WILL be banned.
If your goal is to prevent the rework, that is fine. Like I've said before, I think you're going about it the wrong way. I think that by trying to present every possible situation as being negative, you make it appear that you don't actually understand what the rework will do. That's pretty unpersuasive. However, your overall goal is perfectly legitimate.

With that said, I don't agree with your assessment that Skarner is strong enough to be banned right now. While I do find Skarner very fun, and I maintain a high success rate with him, I do think he is one of the weaker champions in the game. As I've said before, I think that there is no situation in the game where Skarner is even an equal champion to another pick you could have had, much less a superior one. I do want to see him get a few small buffs, but nothing so large as a total rework. Mainly, I would like to see the ult get bugfixed (not for balance, but just because that is one of the most unfun things that can happen in a game), and I would like to see his movement speed increased OR mana costs slightly reduced. I don't think this would make him banworthy, but I do think it would stop him from being one of the weakest champions in the game.

Also, my goal is befrending Scruffy? That's just unrealistic. If I was trying to befriend Scruffy, I wouldn't bother with you. Like I've been saying this whole time, your insistence on painting everything in a negative light wreaks havoc on the credibility of your arguments. Arguing with you just makes me look like the stubborn bastard who can't stop arguing with the other stubborn bastard. Besides, Scruffy already answered one of posts where I lined out criticisms. If that didn't bring change, why would arguing with you have any chance of bringing it about?

My goal in this thread overall is to either A. argue that the rework is unncessary and small buffs should be used or failing that (which is likely because we know multiple Rioters who dislike the permaslow) B. argue that the rework should preserve as many gameplay patterns as possible (including permaslow) and that whatever happens, Skarner gets the fix to his ultimate that I've been asking for since it first got nerfed and hopefully 1-2 other small buffs to make up for the indirect nerfs of season 3 itemization. Also, it should be noted that talking to you isn't actually something that helps me fulfill that goal. I'm just doing this right now because I like talking about Skarner.

Anyway, I should really get back to work instead of spending so much time writing about video game balance. I'll check for a continuation to the argument tomorrow. Have a good day.


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Mormpooid

Senior Member

11-15-2013

skarner, i'll miss your q


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Shahamut

Senior Member

11-16-2013

At Sightless66:

Ive been enjoying reading your posts.

To be fair, I agree with you on most of your points. I havent run any hard numbers, but I think the only benefit the rework really carries (I mean come on 24% over 3 uses of Q? Thats hardly a benefit) is the fact that you could slow the carry whos running away from your team, even if blocked by their tank. I don't know if that advantage would be enough to call it a buff for his ability to team fight though. Just a potential positive. Is that what you were trying to say in the first place?

I think the guy you are arguing with sees the word buff (or assumes the word) and just goes red... I don't think he is reading anything else after that.

MAKE MINOR ADJUSTMENTS AND LEAVE THE REST OF SKARNER ALONE! Honestly, there have been some interesting ideas put up here, any of those get tested?


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

If Scruffy feels like he wants to put the attack speed somewhere else, have him put it on E as a passive. 24% on as a fully built up stack is insulting.

I thought it might be cool having E as an active ability with 10-15% spell vamp or something, so that the guys that do top could still get some of that sustain. Just turn it on and you get it for 6 seconds or whatever, don't have it a skillshot that does damage to balance it out.

If you want to "buff" Skarner, make 1/2 the movement speed on the W a passive. or 1/3. Or 1/4. OR you could tie the movement speed into the E as well, therefore giving the movement speed for a set amount of time instead of the 1 second it takes the enemy to pop your shield. You'd probably need to make the shield's cooldown lower though, at that point it would be a pretty weak skill.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahamut View Post
At Sightless66:

Ive been enjoying reading your posts.

To be fair, I agree with you on most of your points. I havent run any hard numbers, but I think the only benefit the rework really carries (I mean come on 24% over 3 uses of Q? Thats hardly a benefit) is the fact that you could slow the carry whos running away from your team, even if blocked by their tank. I don't know if that advantage would be enough to call it a buff for his ability to team fight though. Just a potential positive. Is that what you were trying to say in the first place?

I think the guy you are arguing with sees the word buff (or assumes the word) and just goes red... I don't think he is reading anything else after that.

MAKE MINOR ADJUSTMENTS AND LEAVE THE REST OF SKARNER ALONE! Honestly, there have been some interesting ideas put up here, any of those get tested?
The reason I see "red" is that Sightless is unable to see opportunity costs to what he considered a stronger aspect of Skarners game, (which it's not, by the way). He takes the idea of having a ranged slow and talks about how great it can be, while ignoring everything he gave up to get it. = Opportunity cost.

Under no circumstances is anything about the slow "better" than the permaslow. It's a crappy slow on a skinny skillshot that will be meaningless most of the time. "But it's ranged!!!" Sure it's ranged, and it's also gone after 2 seconds because of tenacity. Under the best scenario Sightless can dream of, it's **** until 30 minutes into the game. That makes it ****. There are too many other champions that do too many other great things from the get go (or very early on) that you can pick to make building around the new crappy slow worth anything. That's why I see red when he talks about this slow doing something positive. It doesn't when you compare what you could have instead.

It's a very generic, mediocre slow, which is now the defining skill in Skarner's toolkit. (Not talking ults, basically everybody's ult is their defining skill. EVERYBODY has a skill that stands out in their set other than their ult.)

Take away Veigar's stun, is he any good anymore? Take away Tryndamere's Q, would people pick him still? What if you took away Eve's E? Would Cho'gath get picked if you got rid of his popup skill?

Opportunity cost: What are you giving up to build CDR on the new Skarner so you can slow at a reasonable rate? Stuff that brings a LOT more utility and help to a teamfight/game. And oftentimes, a better slow with better uptime.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shahamut View Post
At Sightless66:

Ive been enjoying reading your posts.

To be fair, I agree with you on most of your points. I havent run any hard numbers, but I think the only benefit the rework really carries (I mean come on 24% over 3 uses of Q? Thats hardly a benefit) is the fact that you could slow the carry whos running away from your team, even if blocked by their tank. I don't know if that advantage would be enough to call it a buff for his ability to team fight though. Just a potential positive. Is that what you were trying to say in the first place?

I think the guy you are arguing with sees the word buff (or assumes the word) and just goes red... I don't think he is reading anything else after that.

MAKE MINOR ADJUSTMENTS AND LEAVE THE REST OF SKARNER ALONE! Honestly, there have been some interesting ideas put up here, any of those get tested?
Yeah, what I'm essentially saying is that in a certain scenario, we can see that there may be benefits that the reworked Skarner has over the live Skarner. However, that one scenario doesn't outnumber the things that he probably loses.

The attack speed change is just... ugh. I mean, I get the idea behind the change. The shield is a big part in the feast-or-famine gameplay because Skarner tends to be either strong enough to keep it up, in which case his abilities get really short cooldowns, or he's not strong enough to keep it up, in which case he turns out weak. Skarner's current shield just gets popped instantly in big fights, so he gets a low uptime out of the attack speed that he currently has, so you're obviously going to have to lower it a bit if the uptime gets increased to 100%. Still though, 24% just feels like so much nothing. Aside from any arguments you could make about Skarner's power, 24% attack speed just doesn't feel like it's actually helping. That's one of the frustrating things in this rework for me. Not only are we losing the permaslow, which was fun to use, but the attack speed is also being modified to a point where it won't actually feel impactful, even if it is technically providing a benefit. I'm really concerned that trying to limit the impact of Skarner's core mechanics (permaslow, the interaction of the steroid and passive) while still keeping him at the same power level is resulting in power being allocated to places that just don't feel fun to use (permanent but marginal steroid, ranged slow that has fewer application for solokilling). The movement speed is nice, but even that is gated by a ramp-up time. I continue to be concerned that they're trying to open up a lot of windows to counterplay Skarner without actually giving Skarner effective methods of responding to the counterplay.


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HopeYouGetBanned

Junior Member

11-16-2013

Would it be possible to make Skarner's Q a toggle pulse type thing? It is very tedious if not outright annoying to have to press Q every second and a half.
It also negatively affects people with high ping, more so than other champions, since you lose DPS instead of burst.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

"OR you could tie the movement speed into the E as well, therefore giving the movement speed for a set amount of time"

Do you mean giving Skarner the movement speed when he pops a mark, or on cast of the E, or just as a passive increase?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Under no circumstances is anything about the slow "better" than the permaslow.


See, this is why I keep arguing with you. You can't acknowledge that there are any situations where a ranged slow has utility that a melee slow doesn't. Not only does it have utility in teamfights, but it is also useful for slowing someone so you can get in range for a pick-off ultimate. You talk about opportunity costs, and you don't acknowledge the cost to having a melee slow instead of a ranged one. In situations where the duration of the slow is less important than the immediate effects of applying it (say, when you're trying to catch a carry so your team can get CC and burst onto them), then a ranged slow has advantages. If you're going to talk about opportunity costs, then you have to acknowledge that there is some advantage to be outweighed by what is lost. Otherwise, it is just a pure loss.

Now, for what will not be the final time because by now you're obscured by the red haze, I AM NOT SAYING THIS MAKES IT BETTER THAN THE PERMASLOW BECAUSE IT ISN'T! I acknowledge that the cost to losing the permaslow is overall a bad thing for Skarner. In most situations, the permaslow will serve Skarner better than the ranged slow. However, I will continue to point out to you that there are situations that will arise in games where a ranged slow has more utility.

You can admit that a ranged slow can do a few things that a melee one can't. No one is going to think that it means that you think the rework should happen. Come on dude. Let's see those gears turning.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by HopeYouGetBanned View Post
Would it be possible to make Skarner's Q a toggle pulse type thing? It is very tedious if not outright annoying to have to press Q every second and a half.
It also negatively affects people with high ping, more so than other champions, since you lose DPS instead of burst.
I've played on 350 ping before when out of country, and I don't think ping actually has a major effect on Skarner's Q. The thing about ping is that every single Q press you make is actually still going through, even if it is arriving a little late. So, unlike other champions where they risk screwing up a combo, Skarner should be pretty fine even at higher pings.

I don't know, maybe it has an effect at higher ping, but I've never experienced that problem.


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Shahamut

Senior Member

11-16-2013

Sightless, just stop arguing with this guy. I don't think he notices that he defeats his own arguments (in a very technical sense, which means he just isn't thinking) with his own words.

On an off topic: What do you think of the new masteries? I think they will work well with the way I like to play Skarner, assuming he doesnt change anyway.