Skarner, I miss your kind

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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
10 second cooldown, 40% CDR (all your money gone) 6 second cooldown, 2 second slow, 4 seconds of downtime. 2 auto attacks at best on a 2 second slow. At least 2 seconds no matter what kind of bullcrap math you are doing. You are NOT going to get 4 auto attacks off in 2 seconds with 40% CDR items built. That is flat out impossible outside the most specific freakin build ever. 50% uptime at best. It's a giant nerf to the frequency of his slow. Nobody else in the world is arguing this, maybe you should ask yourself why you are the only one unable to do pretty easy math.
As a preliminary point, I should note that by my 3rd item, I usually max CDR. Golem, SV, Frozen Heart, with a naked sheen somewhere in the middle. Those 3 tend to make up my first items unless I am extraordinarily fed. Skarner needs CDR and resistances, with a bit of health built in, so I don't rush triforce. I haven't found it helpful to do so, particularly since the individual pieces of the item, barring Sheen, give very little to Skarner compared to pieces of defensive items or CDR items. So, 40% CDR is something I gain very, very early in my builds. By the teamfighting happens, I tend to be either there or almost there.

Your math seems flawed, and I think (although I am not sure) that the flaw is that you are forgetting that when Skarner autos a champion, he gets 1.0 seconds of reduced cooldowns instead of 0.5. It could also be that you are not accounting for Skarner autoing during the slow uptime. I am uncertain where your error is, but I think it is one of those two. Perhpas you can critique my process instead. Here is that math I am using. Skarner has a 6 second cooldown and a 2.5 second uptime. Every time he autoattacks an enemy champion, he gets 1 second off of his cooldown. I assume 1.0 attack speed because that's roughly what he will have with no AS items. So, let's go from when he casts: He casts, and has a 6 second cooldown. He then autos once in the next second, and the cooldown goes down to 4 seconds. He then autos again the next second, and the cooldown goes down to 2. He then autos 1 more time, and the cooldown goes down to 0 seconds. In total, 3 seconds have passed since Skarner cast E, giving the spell an 86% uptime. If you only get 2 autos in this time, then you instead get a 62.5-72.5% uptime. With even 1 autoattack, you reach 50% uptime. I'm pretty certain that you are wrong. I don't see how you assume that Skarner would need to get off 4 autos in 2 seconds. Explain that very, very clearly to me.

Also...

"Nobody else in the world is arguing this, maybe you should ask yourself why you are the only one unable to do pretty easy math. "

Nobody else has mentioned this at all either to agree or disagree with either you or me. The fact that people aren't arguing it doesn't mean that there is complicit agreement with this facet of your argument, it only means that other people haven't argued it one way or the other.


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Da HydroPonic

Member

11-14-2013

Fun things about skarner, you're a scorpion.

IN ALL CAPS - WHAT YOU NEED TO DO WITH SKARNER IS IN HIS AUTO ATTACK ALLOW HIS STINGER TO STRIKE, AS WELL UPGRADE HIS VISUALS WITH HIS SKINS, HIS CRYSTLINE SKIN ALLOW IT TO BE DIFFERENT COLORS WITH THE DIFFERENT SKIN.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
As a preliminary point, I should note that by my 3rd item, I usually max CDR. Golem, SV, Frozen Heart, with a naked sheen somewhere in the middle. Those 3 tend to make up my first items unless I am extraordinarily fed. Skarner needs CDR and resistances, with a bit of health built in, so I don't rush triforce. I haven't found it helpful to do so, particularly since the individual pieces of the item, barring Sheen, give very little to Skarner compared to pieces of defensive items or CDR items. So, 40% CDR is something I gain very, very early in my builds. By the teamfighting happens, I tend to be either there or almost there.

Your math seems flawed, and I think (although I am not sure) that the flaw is that you are forgetting that when Skarner autos a champion, he gets 1.0 seconds of reduced cooldowns instead of 0.5. It could also be that you are not accounting for Skarner autoing during the slow uptime. I am uncertain where your error is, but I think it is one of those two. Perhpas you can critique my process instead. Here is that math I am using. Skarner has a 6 second cooldown and a 2.5 second uptime. Every time he autoattacks an enemy champion, he gets 1 second off of his cooldown. I assume 1.0 attack speed because that's roughly what he will have with no AS items. So, let's go from when he casts: He casts, and has a 6 second cooldown. He then autos once in the next second, and the cooldown goes down to 4 seconds. He then autos again the next second, and the cooldown goes down to 2. He then autos 1 more time, and the cooldown goes down to 0 seconds. In total, 3 seconds have passed since Skarner cast E, giving the spell an 86% uptime. If you only get 2 autos in this time, then you instead get a 62.5-72.5% uptime. With even 1 autoattack, you reach 50% uptime. I'm pretty certain that you are wrong. I don't see how you assume that Skarner would need to get off 4 autos in 2 seconds. Explain that very, very clearly to me.

Also...

"Nobody else in the world is arguing this, maybe you should ask yourself why you are the only one unable to do pretty easy math. "

Nobody else has mentioned this at all either to agree or disagree with either you or me. The fact that people aren't arguing it doesn't mean that there is complicit agreement with this facet of your argument, it only means that other people haven't argued it one way or the other.
Spirit Visage: 3664g 20% CDR
SotAG: 2565g 10% CDR
Frozen Heart: 3544g 20% CDR
Boots: 1085g
Total Cost: 10858

Your total cost for your 40% cooldown reduction is more money than I earn in an average game on Skarner, which is 10,272. So by the time you are reasonably even "able" to pull off your hypothetical situation, I've ended the bulk of my games or it's close to done already. You have absolutely no extra damage. You wasted money on 10% extra cooldown that you can't even use.

I dunno what the average game time for me is, I can't find it. But the average game times that I COULD find online are 30-34~ minutes. So it takes you 30+ minutes before you can even start the hypothetical situation you are talking about, as opposed to being able to do it at 0.00 in the game.

Trinity Force is at it's greatest effectiveness midgame, btw.

You aren't going to auto attack somebody 3-4 times when you are hitting people with the slow at 1000 range. You aren't going to auto attack 2-3 times at 500 range. You aren't going to auto-attack 3-4 times at 200 range either. You are going to be lucky to close the gap and get an auto attack off before they are free of the slow again. The benefit of having a ranged slow will adversely impact the effectiveness of skarners passive.

Also, I dunno what your experiences have been like in teamfights, but typically the other team doesn't line up for your skillshots for you. As a fight happens, things tend to spread out pretty fast. If you are auto attacking a different champ, your carry is running away from you and whoever is chasing him/her most of the time, and you aren't going to be able to throw your ranged slow on tons of people every time like you are suggesting. Your examples are extremely situational, often times optimal, placement of the skill. It's optimistic to the point of being more untrue than true.

10 second cooldown. 2.5 second 50% slow. 7.5 seconds of downtime.

Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about spending 30+ minutes building around on Skarner.

Nunu's is a 6 second cooldown. 3 second 60% slow. 3 seconds of downtime. It also slows their attack speed by MORE than the fully stacked skarner's "attack speed buff", 25%.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Spirit Visage: 3664g 20% CDR
SotAG: 2565g 10% CDR
Frozen Heart: 3544g
Boots: 1085g
Total Cost: 10858

Your total cost for your 40% cooldown reduction is more money than I earn in an average game on Skarner, which is 10,272. So by the time you are reasonably even "able" to pull off your hypothetical situation, I've ended the bulk of my games or it's close to done already. You have absolutely no extra damage.

I dunno what the average game time for me is, I can't find it. But the average game times that I COULD find online are 30-34~ minutes. So it takes you 30+ minutes before you can even start the hypothetical situation you are talking about, as opposed to being able to do it at 0.00 in the game.

Trinity Force is at it's greatest effectiveness midgame, btw.

You aren't going to auto attack somebody 3-4 times when you are hitting people with the slow at 1000 range. You aren't going to auto attack 2-3 times at 500 range. You aren't going to auto-attack 3-4 times at 200 range either. You are going to be lucky to close the gap and get an auto attack off before they are free of the slow again. The benefit of having a ranged slow will adversely impact the effectiveness of skarners passive.

10 second cooldown. 2.5 second 50% slow. 7.5 seconds of downtime.

Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about buffing on Skarner.

Nunu's is 6 second cooldown. 3 second 60% slow. 3 seconds of downtime. It also slows their attack speed by MORE than the fully stacked skarner's "attack speed buff", 25%.
Regarding the itemization: First, Trinity force is most effective midgame because of the Sheen component, not because of the other two. The other stats and their passives are not worth as much to me as CDR. Deals a bit less damage because of Skarner's synergy with CDR and resistances, and it is much tankier. I'm happy with the build. I find that so long as I'm tanky enough, extra damage past a sheen really isn't necessary. Also, remember that attaining max CDR only requires either the glacial shroud or the kindlegem, not both of the full items. This is a late-game build by the way, which is when the teamfighting changes really matter. If the game is snowballing enough that a 30-minute victory is likely, I'll build snowballier items like Lizard, Triforce or rarely Wit's End. With that said, your build is fine too. I can't criticize it because it does work for many people, but I haven't found it to be a generally successful build, so I don't use it much.

"10 second cooldown. 2.5 second 50% slow. 7.5 seconds of downtime.

Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about buffing on Skarner."

For what will most certainly not be the final time (I think we're at #10 now), I am not saying that Skarner's slow has been buffed overall. What I am saying is that your reasoning is full of ****. I can agree that the changes are generally bad for Skarner while also saying that your reasoning why they are bad for Skarner is wrong. I think your overall conclusions are right (that the changes are unneeded and have a decent chance to make Skarner worse), but I can still think your specific reasoning (like that the slow has a sub 50% uptime) are wrong.

First, the entire point of Skarner's slow being ranged now is that in a teamfight, you can apply slow while reliably getting autos on whatever target is near you. You can get off the slow while autoing whoever because you don't need to be near a specific target to slow them. That was my primary basis for saying he wouldn't be hurt and may even be slightly helped in teamfights.

Secondly, I am not going to put itemization aside, and I'm not going to put his passive aside. Those two things synergize particularly well on Skarner because he has a source of CDR built into his kit, which makes CDR items particularly effective on him. I will be building them, and Skarner will benefit heavily from them, so I'm going to use them in my teamfighting calculations.

And yeah, I think the attack speed is pretty low, but you know what? That's going from like a 20% uptime in a pitched teamfight to 100%. Again, ****tier for skirmishes where the shield stays up (and as we have agreed at least 3 times before, this is more important for Skarner than teamfighting potential), but better for teamfights where it just gets popped.

Seriously though, I hate the current shield. The rest of the rework is meh (except the ult), but I'd love to get the attack speed off of the ****ing shield.

Your are continually convinced that I think Skarner is getting buffed. I'll repeat this again: I don't think Skarner will be buffed by these changes, I just think that your reasoning about why he won't be buffed is wrong, and I like telling people that I think they are wrong, so until Scruffy gives us some actual news about Skarner to talk about or puts the rework back on the PBE for me to play again, I'm going to keep doing telling you things you say that I think are wrong until I don't think you are wrong anymore. Because you like arguing as much as I do (at least, I'm pretty sure you do) and you're stubborn as a mule (I'm completely sure of that), we'll probably keep doing this for a while. I'm having fun with this though, and I think (well, I hope) you are too. So, we've got that going for us, which is nice.

Anyway, that's all for now. Let's continue this argument tomorrow.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

"10 second cooldown. 2.5 second 50% slow. 7.5 seconds of downtime.

Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about buffing on Skarner."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
For what will most certainly not be the final time (I think we're at #10 now), I am not saying that Skarner's slow has been buffed overall. What I am saying is that your reasoning is full of ****. I can agree that the changes are generally bad for Skarner while also saying that your reasoning why they are bad for Skarner is wrong. I think your overall conclusions are right (that the changes are unneeded and have a decent chance to make Skarner worse), but I can still think your specific reasoning (like that the slow has a sub 50% uptime) are wrong.
Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about spending 30+ minutes building around on Skarner.

I changed this so it would make clearer sense what I was saying to you


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Regarding the itemization: First, Trinity force is most effective midgame because of the Sheen component, not because of the other two. The other stats and their passives are not worth as much to me as CDR. Deals a bit less damage because of Skarner's synergy with CDR and resistances, and it is much tankier. I'm happy with the build. I find that so long as I'm tanky enough, extra damage past a sheen really isn't necessary. Also, remember that attaining max CDR only requires either the glacial shroud or the kindlegem, not both of the full items. This is a late-game build by the way, which is when the teamfighting changes really matter. If the game is snowballing enough that a 30-minute victory is likely, I'll build snowballier items like Lizard, Triforce or rarely Wit's End. With that said, your build is fine too. I can't criticize it because it does work for many people, but I haven't found it to be a generally successful build, so I don't use it much.
This is because you never carry on Skarner. It's also one of the REASONS you never carry on Skarner.

You're wrong about the uptime, and after this goes live and you use it a few times and you realize how big of a freakin nerf all this garbage is, I wonder if feeding Scruffy a bunch of bullcrap while it was still in beta will still seem worth it to you.

Your uptime before you get a ton of CDR is going to be like 35%... Your ganks are going to be freakin meaningless before level 6... If you catch somebody in the jungle in laning phase, you'll hit them twice and they'll just run away yawning. Pop your shield you'll say, right? 70 damage later (1 skill from any jungle champ.... Any stinkin jungle champ...) and you're slow again.

WHAT THE HELL are we talking about man?

........

I want my money back for the skins I bought, Scruffy


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
This is because you never carry on Skarner. It's also one of the REASONS you never carry on Skarner.

You're wrong about the uptime, and after this goes live and you use it a few times and you realize how big of a freakin nerf all this garbage is, I wonder if feeding Scruffy a bunch of bullcrap while it was still in beta will still seem worth it to you.

Your uptime before you get a ton of CDR is going to be like 35%... Your ganks are going to be freakin meaningless before level 6... If you catch somebody in the jungle in laning phase, you'll hit them twice and they'll just run away yawning. Pop your shield you'll say, right? 70 damage later (1 skill from any jungle champ.... Any stinkin jungle champ...) and you're slow again.

WHAT THE HELL are we talking about man?

........

I want my money back for the skins I bought, Scruffy
Damn you respond quickly. I wasn't even asleep yet. Anyway, I do carry with Skarner, and I carry with this build. It works. It won't work quite as well after the rework due to the change to the steroid, but combining %CDR with flat CDR is never a bad idea.

Also

"Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about spending 30+ minutes building around on Skarner.

I changed this so it would make clearer sense what I was saying to you"

That does make your meaning more clear. However, that is still not a correct analysis of what I am doing. I'm not building around that skill, I'm building around Skarner's passive and his steroid. Because Skarner's steroid gets a higher uptime with both CDR and resistances (although just with CDR in the reworked kit), and that steroid then increases his effective CDR, building for the passive is very effective for increasing both defense and DPS. I find that the combination of damage and tankiness that the tanky CDR + Sheen build gives produces the best results, both in the early-game and the mid/late-game. The fact that it boosts the effectiveness of the slow is a secondary benefit compared to the DPS and tankiness.

I'm not wrong about the uptime, and I know because unlike you, I've actually played with the new ****ing kit. It has a good uptime with CDR in teamfights. I'm telling you that from experience. I can also tell you from experience that your ganks will be fine, because the slow to get yourself and your laner in close, combined with the increased movement speed (that they have to spend time to break while you are ganking) means that you will get close enough to apply enough damage for kills. He won't be a good ganker unless the enemy is overextended, but you know what, he's already not a good ganker unless the enemy overextended. As far as I could tell, nothing ****ing changed unless you're ganking an immobile full-tank (so if you see a Maokai top, know that your ganks against him will suck in the future). What will not be fine is your skirmishing and your chasing. Those get hit, and they get hit pretty bad. Is that overall bad for Skarner? Yeah, I think it is, and I think that's worth taking a big step back from the rework. That doesn't mean that your assumptions about his teamfighting are correct, because they just aren't.

Oh, and this is a good time to mention: I never said that reworked Skarner would be hitting multiple people with his slow most of the time. That would not be true. I said that he would have an easier time hitting the target he actually wanted to slow.

What are we talking about? I just told you what we're talking about. You've come to the correct conclusions about the rework (that it doesn't need to happen), but the reasoning process that led you to that conclusion was bad and based on massively faulty assumptions, and I like telling you that because you're so stubborn that you're not going to reevaluate your position on anything, much less change your mind about it. For example, I continually say that I don't think the rework should happen, and you keep saying that I am telling Scruffy the rework should got through as is. You are convinced that I am your enemy and that I want the rework, and because of that, I'm having fun telling you everything that you are wrong about. What was unclear about that? (Well, your involvement is unclear. I'm working on the assumption that you like arguing as much as I do.)

If you really want to hear what I think the problems with the new kit are, you can just ask instead of throwing the same arguments at me over and over again and hoping I yield. Think about it like this: If you can't convince someone who doesn't want the rework that your arguments are logical, how the hell are you going to convince someone who actually does like it? Use the forum to improve your arguments and weed out the ****ty ones instead of clinging to them.

Ok, I really need to sleep now. More arguing tomorrow.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Damn you respond quickly. I wasn't even asleep yet. Anyway, I do carry with Skarner, and I carry with this build. It works. It won't work quite as well after the rework due to the change to the steroid, but combining %CDR with flat CDR is never a bad idea.

Also

"Itemization aside, that's the skill you are talking about spending 30+ minutes building around on Skarner.

I changed this so it would make clearer sense what I was saying to you"

That does make your meaning more clear. However, that is still not a correct analysis of what I am doing. I'm not building around that skill, I'm building around Skarner's passive and his steroid. Because Skarner's steroid gets a higher uptime with both CDR and resistances (although just with CDR in the reworked kit), and that steroid then increases his effective CDR, building for the passive is very effective for increasing both defense and DPS. I find that the combination of damage and tankiness that the tanky CDR + Sheen build gives produces the best results, both in the early-game and the mid/late-game. The fact that it boosts the effectiveness of the slow is a secondary benefit compared to the DPS and tankiness.


Oh, and this is a good time to mention: I never said that reworked Skarner would be hitting multiple people with his slow most of the time. That would not be true. I said that he would have an easier time hitting the target he actually wanted to slow.

What are we talking about? I just told you what we're talking about. You've come to the correct conclusions about the rework (that it doesn't need to happen), but the reasoning process that led you to that conclusion was bad and based on massively faulty assumptions, and I like telling you that because you're so stubborn that you're not going to reevaluate your position on anything, much less change your mind about it. What was unclear about that?
His steroid is garbage in comparison to other steroids... If you want 20% attack speed spend 420 gold. You can get more attack speed out of runes than you can out of his steroid..

Have an easier time hitting the target you want to slow? What is tough about right-clicking and spamming q? Good grief dude, he's one the easiest champs in the GAME to slow people with... You are trying to tell me that a skinny skillshot is easier to slow people with than THAT? You're trolling... You're just trolling now... you're a 2 game ranked play "skarner" that is trolling the rework thread of one of the least played champions in LoL.. congrats...

If you are having a hard time helping peel for your adc because your slow misses, you are out of position or you just lack reasonable motor skill function. Buy Shurelia's, that will help you catch up and spam q some more.

FOR THE LOVE, STOP talking about how he got any sort of buff. It's not a buff to saw your arms off and get a baseball bat in return..

If you make him go faster, you gotta leave him with a reason to get there for it to be a meaningful buff. If it's not permaslow so his steady dps gets the job done, it had better be massive cc or burst damage. It's like sprinting to the bus stop when you're still 30 minutes early... What the hell was the point? What are you gonna do once you get there?


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
His steroid is garbage in comparison to other steroids... If you want 20% attack speed spend 420 gold. You can get more attack speed out of runes than you can out of his steroid..

Have an easier time hitting the target you want to slow? What is tough about right-clicking and spamming q? Good grief dude, he's one the easiest champs in the GAME to slow people with... You are trying to tell me that a skinny skillshot is easier to slow people with than THAT? You're trolling... You're just trolling now... you're a 2 game ranked play "skarner" that is trolling the rework thread of one of the least played champions in LoL.. congrats...

If you are having a hard time helping peel for your adc because your slow misses, you are out of position or you just lack reasonable motor skill function. Buy Shurelia's, that will help you catch up and spam q some more.

FOR THE LOVE, STOP talking about how he got any sort of buff. It's not a buff to saw your arms off and get a baseball bat in return..

If you make him go faster, you gotta leave him with a reason to get there for it to be a meaningful buff. If it's not permaslow so his steady dps gets the job done, it had better be massive cc or burst damage. It's like sprinting to the bus stop when you're still 30 minutes early... What the hell was the point? What are you gonna do once you get there?
Trolling, huh? Is that it now? Because I disagree with you, it's trolling. Also, we've been through my disinterest in ranked before. Skarner is my second most played champion this season. Drop the ad homenim. Like I said before, I'm not your enemy.

"You are trying to tell me that a skinny skillshot is easier to slow people with than THAT?"

In situations where you are likely to be exposed to enemy CC, yes. Skarner is a non-gapclosing melee champion. This is one of his weaknesses. In teamfights, he tends to eat a CC from someone who is throwing them out, which can decrease his ability to get onto key targets. So, yes, having the slow be ranged does mean that he has the potential to slow key targets even if he eats a CC.

And once again, before you start thinking that just because I can acknowledge a positive to the rework means that I blindly support it, I still don't think the rework needs to go through.

"FOR THE LOVE, STOP talking about how he got any sort of buff. It's not a buff to saw your arms off and get a baseball bat in return.."

I'm not claiming that Skarner has received a buff. Like I said in my previous posts, the reworked Skarner will be weaker in a high number of situations. However, I can look at specific situations, and say that reworked Skarner will be better than live Skarner in those situations. I'm not going to just go along with the claim that he is always worse in every situation, because it isn't true.

You have to disassociate the claim that Skarner has been buffed and the claim that Skarner has one specific situation where he is better. I am not making the first claim, but I am making the second. However, you have taken the fact that I argue for the second as evidence that I support the first. I am not doing that.

Think about it like this: Do you remember the recent Kha'zix nerfs, where his W damage was significantly decreased (due to not procing the passive) and the Q damage was slightly buffed? In that situation, we can say that the Kha'zix changes constituted a nerf because the made the majority of his situations worse, even though one specific situation (catching someone completely isolated) got better for Kha'zix. We can acknowledge that there is a situation where Kha'zix got better, but it is outweighed by the high number of situations where he got worse. The same goes for Skarner. He has one very specific situation where he gets better and many where he either stays the same or gets worse, but you won't acknowledge the one thing that gets better.

That isn't analysis: Your goal is only to see Skarner not get changed, but my goal is to actually discuss the changes and analyze why they won't work. I do this because I want to see Skarner get a few minor buffs to return him to competitive play, and there is no way that will happen if we don't acknowledge what balance changes will actually do. That is why even though WE FREAKING AGREE THAT THE REWORK DOES NOT NEED TO HAPPEN, I'm not inclined to ignore your false claims.

P.S. Considering that we're pretty much running in circles at this point, this is probably as good a time as any to just call this quits until Scruffy brings some new info around or puts the rework back onto the PBE.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-15-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Trolling, huh? Is that it now? Because I disagree with you, it's trolling. Also, we've been through my disinterest in ranked before. Skarner is my second most played champion this season. Drop the ad homenim. Like I said before, I'm not your enemy.

"You are trying to tell me that a skinny skillshot is easier to slow people with than THAT?"

In situations where you are likely to be exposed to enemy CC, yes. Skarner is a non-gapclosing melee champion. This is one of his weaknesses. In teamfights, he tends to eat a CC from someone who is throwing them out, which can decrease his ability to get onto key targets.
If you aren't able to stick to 1-2 champions chasing your ADC, you just MIGHT be a terrible Skarner. I haven't had that problem ever, and I've played well over 1,000 games on him.

Skarner does fine in competitive play if people know how to use him. You shouldn't pick him if they pick 3 champs that can leap away from him and a lux, but if you're picking anything but first or (maybe) second, and know what you are doing, he's amazing.

Ranked play is a lot different than random ques. People approach the game differently and interact with their team a lot differently.

If his skirmishing and ganks got a lot worse, Skarner will be less geared for the team fights you are talking about, thus diminishing his potential at everything you are talking about.

Khazix needed a nerf because he was freakin OP. Your example is rediculous.

Everything you are saying is situational. There are 10~ other champions that would utilize your CDR argument more effectively than Skarner in a team fight who add similar elements to a team fight: peeling with a slow for carries.

My goal is to demonstrate to Scruffy that ignoring Skarner's rework thread won't stop people who love this champion from being upset that he is demolishing our favorite champion. Your goal seems to be befriending Scruffy so he talks about potential other buffs. I don't want other buffs. I don't want Skarner to be picked so often he starts to be banned quite a bit again. I think he is strong enough that he should be banned right now. If they buff his team fights, he WILL be banned.

If Scruffy feels like a little buff is needed, I guess I won't gripe too hard as long as he doesn't get banned all the time. But Scruffy, you are smacking a wrecking ball through this champion and then putting a band-aid on it.