Skarner, I miss your kind

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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
First, I want to critique your item build. Particularly, I think that the purchasing of Iceborn Gauntlet and Wit's End are usually non-ideal. Attack speed isn't good on Skarner unless you have 40% CDR (you always get more effective CDR from actualy CDR items than from a minor boost to the utilization of Skarner's passive), and the AOE slow from Gauntlet is somewhat wasted on Skarner. Instead, try building an early sheen to use for a late-game triforce, and building Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage more often. Spirit Visage is extremely strong item in general, and it synergizes with Skarner's E very well. The Frozen Heart provides greater tankiness than Iceborn Gauntlet while giving more CDR, and it also frees up the Sheen for a triforce, which makes better use of Skarner's high base AD. Also, if you are late in the game, don't build a Sunfire Cape for Armor+HP. The damage is good early but falls off very fast, and you don't need it to push. Randuin's will give you much more teamfight potential while also giving you more defensive stats.
There ya go. Drives me bonkers to see people wasting that much money on Iceborn with Skarner at the moment.

Unfortunately, without Iceborn after this change, what the heck is Skarner going to be able to do? Talk about pigeon holing a build...


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

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Originally Posted by Karede View Post
There ya go. Drives me bonkers to see people wasting that much money on Iceborn with Skarner at the moment.

Unfortunately, without Iceborn after this change, what the heck is Skarner going to be able to do? Talk about pigeon holing a build...
True. That certainly isn't desirable. I mean, it will be nice to have the choice to use it, but I am concerned that it will overtake trinity entirely in the build. Then again, I rarely finish either item by the time games end anyway, so I'm not sure how much that will change things. Then AGAIN, if the utility turns out to be truly necessary, I may not have a choice about actually finishing the sheen into it. Definitely not a favored point of the rework.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
I want the permaslow to stay, but I still have to severely disagree with your assessment here. Skarner's teamfighting isn't at risk with these changes. With the removal, we limit Skarner's chasing potential and his ganking: this is likely true. However, for mid-late game teamfights when Skarner is running 30-40% CDR, he'll pretty much be strictly better. Being able to keep a 100% uptime slow on nearby opponents is not strictly more useful than a stronger 75-80% uptime slow that can be applied at range. Having the ability to be attacking one target while slowing another brings significant value. Skarner's teamfighting is not at risk from this change: In fact, with the removal of the steroid from the easily broken shield and the ability to apply the slow to priority targets, I would say it is one of the only things that the rework will actually make stronger (although it will come at a significant cost to his 1v1 and skirmish power).

Dude, I want the permaslow to stay too, but if you can only see negatives, then you aren't examining this logically. You can come to the conclusion that the negatives of the rework outweigh the positives (I'm leaning that way right now), but if you can't acknowledge the existence of any positives (such as increased teamfighting potential) then you need to reevaluate. Reasoned comparison is persuasive. Hyperbole isn't. For example: The teamfighting potential Skarner gains won't be valuable because of the early and midgame power he loses from the decreased chasing power and the lack of shield durability that will come from having to put a point in E. That's an argument that could be justified (it's not difficult to do either.) Just saying Skarner is worse, always, without exception: That isn't realistic.
If Skarner's job is to peel for his carries, it's insane to think a ranged 2.5 second crappy slow is going to help him with this. 40% cooldown reduction means he's going straight CDR, so forget anything else on him. It's not a 80% up-time slow. It's just plain not. At best, with 40% cooldown reduction, you're looking at around a 50% uptime slow. (6 second cooldown, a couple of attacks to lower the cooldown at best, 2.0~ second slow)(tenacity). Plus, we are assuming that you actually get to hit somebody with your auto attack. If it's ranged, honestly, you might not ever hit something before it expires.

His teamfight got worse. His speed got better, his durability got better. His teamfight got worse. Ult + permaslow does pretty dang solid right now. Ult + 2.0 second slow (what handicapped kid doesn't buy any tenacity anymore), followed by 2-4 seconds of them kicking your adc or ap carry around like a rag doll is what you're looking at now, unless you buy iceborn gauntlet. Iceborn gauntlet pigeon holing restricts your ability to help the adc or ap carry drop the assassin. (lots and lots of gold spent on an item that could have been spent on triforce.) The opportunity cost of what else he can buy instead of being forced into 1 item for the rest of his life ends up being gargantuan.

Nobody is mentioning the very best thing Skarner contributes in any game, period (live skarner). He is an absolute homewrecker of a skirmisher in the mid to semi-late game. When a team isn't all-together. When there is any champion in the game that wanders off alone and you can get that permaslow locked in... Tank, adc, ap, I don't fn care what it is. That changes games.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
True. That certainly isn't desirable. I mean, it will be nice to have the choice to use it, but I am concerned that it will overtake trinity entirely in the build. Then again, I rarely finish either item by the time games end anyway, so I'm not sure how much that will change things. Then AGAIN, if the utility turns out to be truly necessary, I may not have a choice about actually finishing the sheen into it. Definitely not a favored point of the rework.
Man, I finish Tri-force in 80%+ of my games with Skarner. Currently, that champ is freakin awesome. It's almost like you can't help but get fed on him if you know what you are doing and your team doesn't feed like crazy before level 5-6.

By level 6.5, if you don't have a kill (or major assist) on Skarner, you just straight up don't know how to use his kit.


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
If Skarner's job is to peel for his carries, it's insane to think a ranged 2.5 second crappy slow is going to help him with this. 40% cooldown reduction means he's going straight CDR, so forget anything else on him. It's not a 80% up-time slow. It's just plain not. At best, with 40% cooldown reduction, you're looking at around a 50% uptime slow. (6 second cooldown, a couple of attacks to lower the cooldown at best, 2.5 second slow). Plus, we are assuming that you actually get to hit somebody with your auto attack. If it's ranged, honestly, you might not ever hit something before it expires.

His teamfight got worse. His speed got better, his durability got better. His teamfight got worse. Ult + permaslow does pretty dang solid right now. Ult + 2.5 second slow, followed by 2-3 seconds of them kicking your adc or ap carry around like a rag doll is what you're looking at now, unless you buy iceborn gauntlet. Iceborn gauntlet pigeon holing restricts your ability to help the adc or ap carry drop the assassin. (lots and lots of gold spent on an item that could have been spent on triforce.)

Nobody is mentioning the very best thing Skarner contributes in any game, period (live skarner). He is an absolute homewrecker of a skirmisher in the mid to semi-late game. When a team isn't all-together. When there is any champion in the game that wanders off alone and you can get that permaslow locked in... Tank, adc, ap, I don't fn care what it is. That changes games.
How exactly are you figuring that a 50% uptime is what Skarner will have? If he has a 6 second cooldown and a 2.5 second slow duration, then that puts him at a 50% uptime. Assuming he has more than 1.0 attack speed (which he naturally gets with his Q), then if he autos 3 times, that leads to an effective 3 second cooldown with a 2.5 second duration. That is 86% uptime. If he autos twice, it will be a 62.5% uptime. The way I see it, there is almost no way you won't be autoing at least twice once you are onto someone.

" If it's ranged, honestly, you might not ever hit something before it expires."

That isn't a problem for treamfights, that is a problem for skirmishes and chasing. The point I was making is that with the new slow, Skarner won't need to be autoattacking the target he wants to slow. That is the increased utility. I can be hitting a Renekton, and then also slowing the Zed on the other side of the teamfight (or maybe I should be doing that the other way around). There is no reason to not be getting autos off on somebody when you have a longer ranged slow. That is increased teamfight utility. Teamfighting: Not weakened.

"Nobody is mentioning the very best thing Skarner contributes in any game, period (live skarner). He is an absolute homewrecker of a skirmisher in the mid to semi-late game. When a team isn't all-together. When there is any champion in the game that wanders off alone and you can get that permaslow locked in... Tank, adc, ap, I don't fn care what it is. That changes games."

I did mention this. I mentioned that Skarner's skirmish and chaseing potential would be decreased. That isn't disputed, and that is most likely reason why this rework may hurt Skarner. I'm not addressing that because it has already been said about 200 times in this thread. However, that claim does not equate to the claim you made that Skarner's teamfighting would be weakened. That is an entirely different claim.

So, for the record: I do agree that Skarner's skirmishing and chasing will be harmed, and I think that justified not having the rework reach live in its current state even given other benefits that the rework may give him.

"Ult + 2.5 second slow, followed by 2-3 seconds of them kicking your adc or ap carry around like a rag doll is what you're looking at now, unless you buy iceborn gauntlet. Iceborn gauntlet pigeon holing restricts your ability to help the adc or ap carry drop the assassin."

I do have to address one thing here. You have assumed that Skarner will always be buying an iceborn gauntlet in order to maximize his CC potential so he can peel. However, you also acknowledge that Skarner can do a different job (diving the enemy carries to help assassins) better with a trinity force. I don't think you can argue that the diving will be hurt, because if Skarner needs to dive carries, he is still as free to buy Triforce as before (in the dive, it is the ult that is really important to make sure someone gets bursted, not the permaslow. If the kill is not guaranteed in the ult time + the 2.5 seconds of slow, then permaslow will rarely fix that failure). What this will mean is that if Skarner has to become a peeler, then he will be forced to itemize the Iceborn Gauntlet. So, I think that this doesn't hurt his diving like you suggest, because he still has the option to buy the triforce and give up peeling power. Instead, it will hurt him when he has to peel heavily, because he won't be able to get the damage from the triforce because he will have to itemize the Iceborn Gauntlet. So, this is a nerf to him when he is a CC peeler, not when he is an ulting diver.


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A Nydus Worm

Senior Member

11-14-2013

I fracking love Skarner.

I love his sticking power with his Q spam. His speed boost/shield is sweet too. His ult is pretty awesome too.

That one skill that heals him is worthless though. Replace that with literally anything and he will be great.


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MrSchnitzel

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Senior Member

11-14-2013

Mana cost WAY too high, his Q should refund mana depending on how many people are hit, his W can give bonus movement spd depending on how many allies he is near, his E should be changed because it's weird. Make his E allow him to attack with his tail dealing some extra magic damage or applying a neurotoxin that stuns after 3 hits. it would be sick to see him spam Q and attack with his tail!!!


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Sightless66

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karede View Post
Man, I finish Tri-force in 80%+ of my games with Skarner. Currently, that champ is freakin awesome. It's almost like you can't help but get fed on him if you know what you are doing and your team doesn't feed like crazy before level 5-6.

By level 6.5, if you don't have a kill (or major assist) on Skarner, you just straight up don't know how to use his kit.
I tend to get it as a 4th item, following Golem spirit (rarely Lizard spirit), Sheen, Frozen Heart and/or Spirit Visage, and possibly Randuins. The games usually end before I get the opportunity to Triforce people.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
How exactly are you figuring that a 50% uptime is what Skarner will have? If he has a 6 second cooldown and a 2.5 second slow duration, then that puts him at a 50% uptime. Assuming he has more than 1.0 attack speed (which he naturally gets with his Q), then if he autos 3 times, that leads to an effective 3 second cooldown with a 2.5 second duration. That is 86% uptime. If he autos twice, it will be a 62.5% uptime. The way I see it, there is almost no way you won't be autoing at least twice once you are onto someone.

" If it's ranged, honestly, you might not ever hit something before it expires."

That isn't a problem for treamfights, that is a problem for skirmishes and chasing. The point I was making is that with the new slow, Skarner won't need to be autoattacking the target he wants to slow. That is the increased utility. I can be hitting a Renekton, and then also slowing the Zed on the other side of the teamfight (or maybe I should be doing that the other way around). There is no reason to not be getting autos off on somebody when you have a longer ranged slow. That is increased teamfight utility. Teamfighting: Not weakened.



I do have to address one thing here. You have assumed that Skarner will always be buying an iceborn gauntlet in order to maximize his CC potential so he can peel. However, you also acknowledge that Skarner can do a different job (diving the enemy carries to help assassins) better with a trinity force. I don't think you can argue that the diving will be hurt, because if Skarner needs to dive carries, he is still as free to buy Triforce as before (in the dive, it is the ult that is really important to make sure someone gets bursted, not the permaslow. If the kill is not guaranteed in the ult time + the 2.5 seconds of slow, then permaslow will rarely fix that failure). What this will mean is that if Skarner has to become a peeler, then he will be forced to itemize the Iceborn Gauntlet. So, I think that this doesn't hurt his diving like you suggest, because he still has the option to buy the triforce and give up peeling power. Instead, it will hurt him when he has to peel heavily, because he won't be able to get the damage from the triforce because he will have to itemize the Iceborn Gauntlet. So, this is a nerf to him when he is a CC peeler, not when he is an ulting diver.
10 second cooldown, 40% CDR (all your money gone) 6 second cooldown, 2 second slow, 4 seconds of downtime. 2 auto attacks at best on a 2 second slow. At least 2 seconds no matter what kind of bullcrap math you are doing. You are NOT going to get 4 auto attacks off in 2 seconds with 40% CDR items built. That is flat out impossible outside the most specific freakin build ever. 50% uptime at best. It's a giant nerf to the frequency of his slow. Nobody else in the world is arguing this, maybe you should ask yourself why you are the only one unable to do pretty easy math.

The reality is you aren't going to have 40% cdr until either the very end of the game or unless you don't buy anything else at all. His usual downtime for his slow at rank 5 will be something like 6-8 seconds, just like basically every other generic slow in the game. We will have to specifically itemize to gain access to a ho-hum slow on a somewhat frequent basis. There are lots of better champs at slowing now. Nunu, for example, with 40% CDR, will have a much more effective slow, which is ranged, on a better downtime, while being able to speed up the carry to help him get away. Maokai will have a ranged slow with better downtown, while being able to knock back AND snare to help peel. The list goes on. You've got to acknowledge that if you're talking about hypothetical situations, what opportunities are you giving up at the cost of buying 40% CDR on Skarner? There are TONS of better options out there... Chogath's slow, for example.... An AOE pop up with a slow attached to it and it's a greater slow %, 40% cooldown reduction is gonna give you a 5 second cooldown, (which ends up being basically permaslow after the 1 second popup). He's also got a silence to shut that assassin up while your carry destroys him and a nice burst skill with his ult. Lee sin, better slow, only 2 second downtime with 40% CDR. Let's not talk about how OP Nasus's slow is.. It's just unbelievable and let's leave it alone. Oh and he hits like a runaway train late game.

And as far as Skarner diving - yes he can dive I guess, but that's not what I was talking about. There are dozens of better champs to dive with. Skarner is NOT built as a natural pick to dive with. What I meant was killing the assassin diving on YOUR adc or ap carry. NOT diving their carries. In teamfights a good Skarner (after initiating is done) will peel for his carries. The ult can be used to help the team delete a stupid carry or to peel.


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Karede

Senior Member

11-14-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
I tend to get it as a 4th item, following Golem spirit (rarely Lizard spirit), Sheen, Frozen Heart and/or Spirit Visage, and possibly Randuins. The games usually end before I get the opportunity to Triforce people.
Buy the health jungle item with tenacity and boots, then sheen. If you do extremely well mid-game and ganking, finish triforce. If you do bad, buy armor and MR as needed. If you are still doing bad, keep going tanky. If you get ahead and start getting the money, finish your Tri.

Tri gives you everything you could possibly want out of one item on Skarner. Enough damage to pop a stupid carry in a fairly reasonable amount of time, movement speed, a little bit of health, and the chance to slow them without having to land your 2nd q.

STAY AHEAD of their carries and you get Tri-Force. When you fall behind or stay even, it's not going to be worth it, you're right. Buy Shurelya's and make a play for your team. And PERMASLOW those fr's jumping your carries.

@sightless: How are any of the buffs going to change anything about what Skarner is good at? How is it going to free up his itemization? He still needs to work pretty hard to close gaps. He still needs a lot of time to do the damage he is capable of. He still needs to spend his time peeling for his carries.

A bit heftier shield and a generic, skinny, ranged AoE slow and a nerf from 50% to 24% (after 4-6 seconds of the fight, btw, it starts at 8%) attack speed at the cost of a skill that contributed Permaslow to the team regardless of how far behind you fall.... What the hell are we talking about here?

8% stackable to 24% attack speed is freakin pathetic... Do I need to list other champion's attack speed steroids or can we agree on that point, at least?