Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Scruffy- I want to have faith in this rework, but according to the current PBE, it looks like complete and utter ****. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but I just don't see how it works. Skarner is a jungler. Any laning from him is icing on the cake, he was designed to jungle.

Let's go ability by ability, and explain why he sucks:
Q: The AD ratio and the attack speed buff are completely bipolar. No AP-centric champ has an AD ratio on their main damage ability, and even AP-centric champs that use attackspeed have some sort of modifier to their attacks to scale off AP. Ex: Teemo, Diana passive, Kayle, etc.

How are you supposed to build Skarner effectively? As an AD Bruiser to use his attackspeed and Q spam? As an AP bruiser to use his shield and fracture and lose usefulness on attack speed buff and half of Q spammed? What's his ideal build, and is his entire kit utilized through it, the way top tier junglers are?

W: The cost is insane for a mana champ considering it's his only sustain in jungle. Udyr's turtle activation costs 47 for the same shield over the same time, or 25% less roughly than Skarner's. J4's has the same shield, at 47, but his also gets buffed by nearby champs, and slows. J4's has a similar cooldown, while Udyr's is faster. Nautilus' costs more but has 40% more health, and aoe damage with it.

It's also Skarner's gap closer. Every other viable jungler has a gap closer that's far superior: J4's EQ, Lee Sin's entire kit, Elise's rappel, Noct's ult, Aatrox, Zac... even Udyr's bear stance is a better gap closer.

E: His lone CC besides his ult is a 40% slow for 2.5 seconds. On a 10 second skill shot. Again- Every viable jungler has better. Aatrox has a knockup and a 40% slow for the same amount of time. Zac has a slow, a knock up, plus his ult. EQ from J4, plus his slow shield. Udyr's bear stance stun. Elise's is also a skill shot, but it stuns at least. Noct has a fear. How does Skarner compare to those?

R: His impale is a 350 range. Jarvan's got 650 on Cata. Vi's is 825. WW's is 700. Naut's is 825. I'd argue that maokai's twisted advance, with its 650 range, 2 second root, and 10 second cooldown is far more useful than Skarner's ult. But he can move the target back, you say! Maokai hits Q. Same difference.

What role is Skarner expected to fill, that cannot be filled better than someone else? What does Skarner do better than any other jungler? And if the answer to either of those questions is "I don't know," then you need to go back to the drawing board.


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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Also the word I wrote rhymes with trap. Not sure why you censor the word ****.


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GameZombie

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Just ran the jungle and I can say I felt like a ba scorpion late game. The q ability definitely helps clear the jungle along with w and the e feels very responsive. I stopped a vayne chasing me with it . I ran full ad runes with standard 21 9 jungle setup. Started with a Wriggles into triforce, tm, warmongs, and banshees, with berserkers. His ganking and clear time puts him on the level of udyr and his skill cap has been raised but still allows for people to dive right in. Over all I think these changes has put him back on the map. Also the w movement is most likely what makes me the happiest. I can get from point a to b and still feel like the shield helps. Over all I did my abilies q,w,e,q,w,r,q,e,q,q,w,r, then maxed w and finished r and e last. Hope this feedback helps a bit.

Thanks much,

GameZombie
PBE: Beta Admin


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Four of Ten

Senior Member

10-21-2013

Let me answer all your questions with his equation that is mathy

Skanner = R

in this example skanner stands for skanner and R stands for "ALL I CAN DO IS PRESS R THE REST OF MY KIT IS USELESS"


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venomxl

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Also, just one more annoying thing... you make his shield ramp up, rather than giving him chase ability right away, making his shield even worse for chasing and dueling, as rather than being able to utilize both, only one can be adequately used at a given time, as opposed to every other jungler shield in the game, where Lee Sin's can gap close (and give dueling power if you consider it one ability), Naut's can AoE damage, Diana's can AoE damage, Jarvan's can slow, etc. etc.


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RPGKing4

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

Skarner's reminder text (or whatever you call the aura box over your skills) is wrong after you activate his W. I noticed that earlier.


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yoyozev

Senior Member

10-21-2013

1.Please add something else to his E. It just feels lackluster.

2.Make the W movement speed boost immediate. He is def gonna be in the front lines so his shield is gonna get taken down very fast...

3.Offensively, he is very weird with all them ap ratios...


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CG DataS

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Senior Member

10-21-2013

So I just found out about this from my friend, so I figured I might as well make my plea.

I mained Skarner Jungle in Season 3 and 2, and I love him the way he is, as he is my go-to jungler when I really just want to win a game. His Q/W synergy is great, his R, while it has gone through some rough periods, really came through when you needed it. I agree that his E was a "doesn't exist until lvl 12" skill, as it didn't give him much that building spellvamp/lifesteal didn't already.

Good Stuff
Q permaslow is defining and satisfying to achieve
Timing of W correctly has changed fights completely
R is such a great initiate/gank/counter-initiate skill
Brawling is amazing late-game
I like skills that have uses both offensively/defensivly like Skarners W, because it forces you do decision ake on the fly, do I W now and close the gap, or do I walk in, saving the W incase of counter-gank so I can escape, kindof deal (bad example, but point remains valid)

Bad Stuff
E has no feel or impact
Some R shenanigens when they removed the flash override, losing a lot of valid ults
Blue dependant even into late game(But this isn't a problem if you know how to deal with it, i.e. communicating with mid during champ select/guarding/warding jungle well)


As for the current state of the proposed changes, i'll go ahead and say my feeligns on those

Q
I think the Permaslow was Skarners defining trait after his ult, and taking that away is a huge hit to skarners fun value for me. Skarner isn't event he only champ to pull a similar stunt (udyr's chain stun, Sejuani, ect.) And it had its counterplay if the opponent knew what they were doing. blink/dash at the right moment, and suddenly skarner needed to Q two more times to get the slow back, CC skarner right before he Q's and he will likely lose it unless there are minions nearby, blink/dash over any wall and skarner isn't coming (Unless he has flash, but woo boy let me tell you how much I hate flash, so I never get it). In simple terms, people saying theres no coutnerplay could argue that fact about a lot of champs, but they keep their combos because there is in fact mobility coutnerplay. Also, giving the As buff from W to Q is a move int he wrong direction to me, as it makes one of my jobs in late laning phase much harder, dropping towers. Now that he needs to hit something with his Q to proc the AS, whereas before he could use his W, it means it will take that much longer to drop a tower when you really need to.

W
This was my engage (lacking flash as I have said), and bypassing the AS issue (mentioned above) I think that making the AS ramp up makes a difficult, position based engage all the harder, as now your opponent has more time to react when they see you appear, which is skarners biggest balancing factor, his range and how long it takes him to get in there (a valid counterpoint to once hes in, hes sticking to you I think) So this skill has also lost a lot of value for me.

E
I think this is a wrong move in fixing his E, it needed to do something more useful, but it feels like you just moved the slow to it and called it a valuable skill now, kind of an artificial empowerment, and it also takes away the biggest fun I had playing skarner, which is those stick'to'em moments. Overall, I feel the skill is still bad, but now its required, so I dislike how that was handled personally

R
Yay, happy to see the pseudo-flash override is back. That is all.

Overall
Overall, skarner didn't really gain anything, and he didn't lose anything, but they way his traits were moved around make me feel that he won't have that same appeal he did before, which I cannot confirm, since I cant get on the PBE to try it. Although I worry that all these minor edits were to balance a "buff" to his ult that was basically his original ult, and overall, he will be a less solid champ in a game where mobility is king, and he now has less of it, and less mobility CC to bring to the table, I feel Skarner will be played even less now, as other jungles still provide that CC.

A note about Mana dependence
I did say that Skarner was blue dependant, however I would like to clarify that that only applied when he needed to gank. My standard opening build of boots+spirit stone+philo stone provided enough mana regen for me to jungle long past the Blue respawn, and that ganks were where he really lost his mana

Overall, I hope you take what I have said into consideration Scruffy, and I hope that Skarner doesn't fall into the same underused and ignored category that a lot of my other mained champs have (Kog'Maw, how I miss ye)


Build
I generally go

Hunter+pots
into
Philo+spiritstone+boots
into
Triforce+Swiftness boots
into
Warmogs/Sunfire/visage (depending)
with
Hextech gunblade for the initial slow(catchup) and the awesome sstain he gets when paired with warmogs/visage)
with possibly
Rageblade to increase sustain
Or other generic tank items.

So basically I build him tanky brawler with focus on sustaining high health during a fight using W/E whenever possible and prudent, and slamming the field with Qs!


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KyuzoS7

Senior Member

10-22-2013

don't pull him from PBE i don't care about xerath and heim i use neither.

give me skarner and battlecast skin!


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Wobiwobi

Senior Member

10-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
-Skarner's ult is AWESOME (jawesome?) and it is his defining ability
-Skarner is very mana dependent and without blue he suffers
-Skarner is very easily kited
-Getting permaslowed by Skarner is frustrating
-Skarner's E ability (Fracture) doesn't feel useful/can be somewhat clunky to use
-Other junglers (zac/j4/voli etc) are more reliable in ganking and teamfights

Am I missing anything?
SKARNER CAN BE KITED EASILY AND OTHER JUNGLERS DO BETTER JOB AT GANKING&TEAMFIGHT?!

so let's remove his permaslow and give slow on a 9 second cooldown SKILLSHOT that can miss and make your gank look like **** >.>

RIOT logic on making old champs viable again... -_-

you could at least make this crappy slow skill a targetable (point-click) skill instead of skillshot that can be missed/avoided