Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Vivi R66

Senior Member

09-06-2013

So, can i make you ONE request? Please DONT nerf his base attack speed. Its already tied with a lot of champs, that Attack Speed nerf will make him completelly counter intuitive with his fast insect play, and his base attack speed with be on bottom 5 of the game.

Do something else, but dont nerf that, items like Wits End and Trinity Force finally became viable again on Skarner, if you nerf this it will be ****ty on him again, as his base attack speed will suck.


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Tizano

Junior Member

09-06-2013

did you not read his post? they're nerfing his beginning attack speed but his attack speed will be the same at the end of the game as it was before the nerf. so instead of a ramped up attack speed buff it'll get slowly better as the game progresses


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Cuxman

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This is a really great quote from Morello that is very important to Skarner's identity. The new kit still accomplishes those goals just in a different way. Skarner is able to more effectively get on to targets with the new E, and with the improved W he has an easier time keeping up with his targets. The target has a little more freedom of movement than before but Skarner is still able to maintain his effective range.
Nice, ignoring two weeks full of posts from people who don’t want that Skarner will be changed into another generic champion, and replying with another generic answer.

Useless to post anything in this threat, if it don’t suits for the new Skarner Scruffy will just ignore it.
To bad that we don’t have one of the guys from the reworks who communicate with the fans of the champion,
here we only get: “that’s how I planed it, it’s gonna be awesome!”


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Guitar Solo

Junior Member

09-07-2013

Has autoattacking helping his shield stay up/get stronger been explored?
I feel if he had like +5/10/15/20/25 extra shield whenever he auto'd, his fighter aspect would feel really neat.


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hushpuppi3

Junior Member

09-07-2013

I'm probably extremely late for this but I'd just like to fill this out since I play a lot of skarner jungle

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

It would easily be the early game power (assuming you grab red) with the tons of slows, good counter to hecarim tbh, and his ultimate

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Cast time on his ult but I see you've already been addressing that, other than that it has to be how useless and mana whorish his E is, also how little range he actually has

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

His ult is obnoxious, you can't really kite from him lol

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Hecarim probably has a better chase ability than skarner, but I feel like instead of just being fast to keep up, slowing is far better (they can't kite to team as fast, can't run to turrets)

I feel like skarner has a whole unique playstyle that I really seem to connect to, his ult is great to initiate with, kill their adc or mid right as the fight starts and its a 4v5 (or 4v4 if you get killed in the process, but they have 1 less huge damage dealer)

Skarner is also a great peel for the team, I can't really think of a better jungler other than J4 because he can just jump over with his E-Q combo


I guess in conclusion, I really like his kit, even with a pretty useless E, but the range issue can be somewhat of a problem in games


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Timjin

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post

First, I accept that I was wrong in calling the ranged slow a gap closer. Technically, you're right in that it isn't. My fleshed out point is that it works like a gap closer. Skarner's always been able to amplify his own movespeed (which I think you would define as a gapcloser). My reasoning comes from this logic: movespeed enhancing gap closers close gaps between champions by creating a disparity in movespeeds (i.e. if I'm using an ability to move 100 units faster than you, like Hecarim, then I'm closing a gap at X rate). A 50% slow on an enemy champion (let's assume 375 movespeed) will create a much stronger gap closing ability for Skarner when he activates his shield and runs at the slowed champion, given the larger disparity in movespeed.
I agree with you here, that it does work similar to a gap closer especially combined with his W. I suppose all I was trying to say about it is that it will be better for Skarner attempting to gap close to his target after the changes whether or not he uses his E since the speed was increased, similar though weaker ganking if he actually reaches them (but he needs counter play so this makes sense) and much better than live if he actually hits his E because the risk/reward factor allows him to get on his target much faster, and increases Skarner's area of influence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post
Second, just to quickly address one thing--I've been taking on a pet project at my home computer gathering data on how many respondents in the community identified as the most frustrating part of playing against him as A) Getting ulted B) Getting permaslowed C) Him sustaining or D) Something else. I'm only to page ~40 by now and I want to get to page 65 before I make my thread, but I can tell you that the numbers are overwhelming. This was my attempt to isolate my personal biases and identify an objective collective community response.
I'm very interested in seeing your findings when you finish this. I love seeing data like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post
Third, I agree that moving the attack speed elsewhere was a good design choice. That said, it helped make the ability unique. It's not that I want it to be the same--it's that I want it to be unique, even if it is different. For example, moving the heal from the E onto the shield and the attack speed onto the E would be a fine design choice IMO, because it would make those abilities still feel unique, but be different in a healthy way.
Moving the attack speed will help balance Skarner and remove a lot of his feast or famine moments due to losing your shield and thus losing everything (Speed, Attack Speed, and the ability to build it back up via his passive). I admit, I'll miss he heal, but it's possible that it's outside his power budget now. I personally wouldn't have minded if they kept the heal on his E in addition to the slow, but I suppose that's even more reward for hitting and again, power budget.
Overall, unique is nice, but it has to work and be balanced and healthy as you mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post
Fourth, I don't know how much you play Skarner, but if you play him as much as I do, you'd know that it's not simple to engage on a priority target from standoff range. As a poster a couple posts above yours said, he expects it to be a flash popper. It will be, if it goes live. There are more built in mechanics for teams to stop Skarner from running up to a group to ult than there are for cleansing a slow that will allow Skarner's teammates to initiate if the team abandons the afflicted targets. I don't really know how else you can put it--being able to slow an enemy at range before activating your movespeed boost significantly improves your ability to reach that target. There really isn't any debate about that, and Scruffy has stated that this intent is to make starting fights easier. This isn't just me who knows what the reworked E will mean for getting ults off.
The whole "Flash Popper" Situation will be much more likely in lane ganks than in stand-offs. Hitting someone with an E will probably feel similar to getting hit with a Mundo Cleaver except for 2 things: Mundo's Cleaver can be blocked (in exchange for damage) and Mundo can't really follow-up his Cleaver outside of just fighting. Skarner's E, if he misses it, will grant the opponent's more of a chance to engage that before since now Skarner will have used some of his lockdown potential, and left an opening in his team's defenses, but gaining a much larger chance of actually getting in for a grab since his target will be slowed and he will be faster than before (Gap-closer combo). On live, if you fight on Skarner, he will lock you down, there's not a chance that he wont do it since he'll be applying slows every couple seconds with no counterplay outside of kill him.
Overall I feel the ranged slow generates a much more interesting playing field since you are rewarded more for hitting but now there is more counter play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post
Fifth, I think Skarner players' biggest gripe about their own ults is the unreliability for the ability to actually go off, which Scruffy has addressed, and is a good change. Other than that, my point was to highlight that right now there's a very satisfying amount of counterplay on Skarner's ability to get an ult off--and that tipping the balance of this ease will upset (most likely the ones getting ulted) more players than it will please.
I actually have to agree with you on this one. When I play Skarner, having your Ult "go off" and then do nothing, especially after a flash-grab, feels really bad. This is most definitely the biggest gripe with playing him right now and I'm thrilled Scruffy attacked that.
People WILL complain more about Skarner after he's changed, that's for sure. They did before as well because a suppression is incredibly clear and feels very powerful. People will complain when they fight against it, but it's no worse than a lot of other ult's, and those you can't counter by dashing slightly away mid animation.

Despite fixing his ult, most of the counterplay will still exist for Skarner, along with the ability to dodge his slow now. If he can't get to you, he wont ult you. But live Skarner does not always have a chance to get to you unless he pops everything and even then your target may just flash away and deny all your hard work. This change helps remove those situations. Is it too much? Maybe, but it will be easier to balance now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post
I understand that you might disagree on a few of these points, and that's fine. My overarching message to RiotScruffy is that he should attempt to iterate more on his kit and not get stuck on this one, as it lacks uniqueness and has received negative feedback from multiple angles (the AP skarners, the jungle skarners, the bruiser lane skarners) that I believe highlights that his current iteration of the kit can be greatly improved.
I feel that most of us here will have slightly different visions of how Skarner should be. Although this particular message wasn't directed toward me, I feel that you have a lot of good points.

Scruffy could definitely iterate more, but anything he does much remove frustration from playing against Skarner and from playing as Skarner, even at the cost of some uniqueness unfortunately. He won't leave anything on the kit that lacks counterplay just because it's unique. It also seems that every rework we've ever seen has had people on different sides of the fence. Some people love the changes, and others hate it with a passion. This happened with Sejuani, Master Yi, (Definitely Karma, though there was much more hate). In this case, I'm happy with the changes I've seen so far, and I'm in Support of Scruffy. At the end of the day, he will do what he can to make Skarner the best that he can, for the game.


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Justaco

Senior Member

09-07-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar Solo View Post
Has autoattacking helping his shield stay up/get stronger been explored?
I feel if he had like +5/10/15/20/25 extra shield whenever he auto'd, his fighter aspect would feel really neat.
While this isn't a bad idea, his passive already helps him to bring the shield back up faster. If he had that in addition to the passive the shield would either need to be initially weaker or have a longer cooldown, and we don't want that do we.


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Just played a game agaınst a teemo that got moderately fed because hıs AP scalıng ıs so stupıdly hıgh and kept thınking "wow, they are goıng to ruın Skarner because he -lacks counterplay-... meanwhıle Teemo exısts" even wıth the teemo nerf, hıs abılıty to "permaslow" not just one person, but an entıre team ıs kında sılly.

yes, we bought oracles... that doesnt help when he plants ıt rıght at the edge of brush, ıt also doesnt help when he plants ıt rıght ın the mıddle of a teamfıght. And ıf a whole team ıs chasıng for the kıll and they stop to kıll the shrooms, guess who gets away?

Anyway, I wısh Skarner had _half_ the slowıng abılty that teemo does. :-P

I agree wıth the person who saıd that Rıotscruffy ısnt lıstenıng to any opınıon that dıffers from hıs own. No other buıld types have been trıed, no feedback has been taken ınto account, no hard data that shows ımprovement has been posted, just steamrollıng down thıs narrow path and chantıng "It'll be great guys!" .... I thınk ıt ıs goıng to leave a lot of Skarner players really sad.

Does every "rework" go down lıke thıs? The only one I can thınk of that actually worked out well was Sejuanı.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CertainlyT View Post
Champions have finite power budgets. We can let Renekton kill towers faster, but we have to take power from elsewhere. Rengar is in this position -- his pushing power combined with his ability to duel severely constrains how much power he can have elsewhere on his kit.

In the end, the choice is up to the designer who made the champion as to where they want this budget to be spent. Personally, I tend to disfavor substantially augmenting tower damage on my own -- Darius's W doesn't grant bonus damage on towers; Zyra's plants don't attack towers and die in 1 hit to them; Thresh's E passive doesn't proc on towers.
Post from another rioter, and it sounds easy to understand, right?

But here Skarner looses his entire tower pushing power
(Like others and I wrote about 10 times with not a single comment from Scruffy)
and he looses base attack speed + halve of his attack speed steroid as compensation for it.

Not to mention the slower response time of his movement- and attack speed, the huge loss of team fight cc,
the heal and last but not least the lower power through his new 3 skills point management
(slow, damage or speed, one of it now has to stay on level 1 till the endgame).

The only plus on the power management side is an ultimate change that I would only call a bug fix.


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Teh2DUDEe

Senior Member

09-08-2013

Just do battlecast skin .