Skarner, I miss your kind

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Mimiron

Junior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysan Marquise View Post
Do not compare this to the Karma rework. They are night and day.

Allow me to compare several scenarios.


1: Skarner is ganking someone.

Version 1: Current
1: He must close in on the target using his W.
2: He, upon getting into close range must succeed in getting off 2 Qs before he can begin constantly slowing his enemy.
or
2: He can ult the enemy at this same range, disabling them.
3: If his shield currently lasts, he can use it to gain a notable attack speed boost.
4: His opponent either duels skarner when slowed or attempts to retreating during a permanent slow.
Skarner's ability to win this duel is hyperbolic in a sense. The more he wins the more easily he wins.
5: Afterwards he can use his E to slowly recover.

Version 2: Rework
1: He must close in on his target using W. He is faster for this purpose - markedly.
2: He must close in to a range where he can E them. This initial engagement is far more effective than current baseline skarner.
3: He may now upon catching up to them ult them or fight them.
4: He builds up a small attack speed boost over a few seconds. There is no notable window before he escalates or meaningful escalation unlike the charging of Q prior(though that only is true when he didnt have minions to prep him)
His dueling ability is markedly less hyperbolic. It is more consistent regardless of opponent. His ganking ability is similar, but generally improved.

Before: Chain slow. Stronger difference between winning and losing. Less of a flow to the uses of his abilities, perhaps more choices.

After: Long range slow, better ganks. Worse at dueling against weak foes.


Now lets take teamfights:

Situation 1: Current
1: Skarner uses W to engage enemy team.
2: Skarner picks off enemy with R or moves into group and begins chain slowing.
3: He is auto-attacking because it reduces his cooldowns, but he very rarely has his shield up enough to get an AS boost.

Situation 2: Rework
1: Skarner may use W to engage, or may use E to engage.
2: Skarner picks of enemy with R or moves into group with more potent auto-atacks.
3: Skarner is better able to disengage from foes (E has a more potent slow, W lower CD and higher potential speed boost with more health), though less able to peel *assuming he got into melee against that opponent.

Before: Keep entire enemy team chain slowed.
After: More AS, more choices in fight, more ability builds viable, better able to affect a non-clumped together team.


Now, personally, I would rather these mana cost reductions were reverted and he got better AS, but I really think this is a better Skarner design.
Agreed. I think these changes are headed in the right direction. Skarner will still feel essentially the same (minus a heal, but no decently ranked Skarner players got anything out of it anyway, plus the shield is buffed, so the power is still there). People whining about his slow don't realize how much better it is for a gank to have an instant, ranged slow (Lulu Q, basically) rather than waiting for 2 Qs AFTER you get near an enemy before you can slow for an abyssmal amount, and how short ganks are typically, anyway, as for the lack of a permaslow.

Stoked about the ult revert too.

I'll be watching the number-tweaking. Excited for this to drop as Skarner is my favorite jungler.


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Kladdius

Senior Member

08-23-2013

i like his ult, its just glorious to know that you can impale someone and drag them around, like those moments of panic when you flash over a wall to ult someone right next to it, you can see the fear in their eyes, their last moments regretting hugging that wall and being over aggressive on your team. i just wish i could impale someone and either flash or use thresh lantern, that would be sick.
on another not i really enjoy his lore and his personality you can pick up from the things he says, like when you impale someone he yells out get off my team, it makes me feel bad hes the last one of his kind, yet he still cares so much for other.

TL;DR : impaling people is fun as hell, hes a cool lovable guy who you also feel sad for.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

08-23-2013

"The shiled is buffed, so the power is still there"

No.

The shield was buffed for 5 + 0.2 ap scaling level 1, and 30 + 0.2ap level 5. The heal was easily 45 at level 1 in the jungle, and had a minimun of 0.3 scaling, at level 5 it was 90 heal on a single target.

And the mana cost of his are still high, the E got a slow but no more damage, and still has the same slow animation. His shield DOES NOT compensate the heal properly. Only thing he got was mobility out of these nerfs.

His ganks will be "wait for ult and then use your broken mobility for a greak gank, then autoattack creeps and monsters to get your ult again"


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Why is Skarner picked in a game?
Cause he is a tank that is good in protecting the adc.

If you want a tank that can initiate, there are many who can so that a lot better than he can.

After the rework he is not even in the top twenty of anything.
As soon as his ulti is down there is no reason to give him any attention,
even breaking his shield is not needed, he don’t gets anything dangerous from it.


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-23-2013

I would imagine that this Skarner would play more like Hecarim.

Very fast potentially. Decent survival.

Here are the differences:
1: Cares about auto-attacking more.
2: Deals magic damage
3: Scarner scales better
4: Hecarim has better base values
5: Skarner deals better single target damage
6: Hecarim has powerful AoE CC and decent AoE damage.
7: Skarner has lower cooldowns.
8: Each has different types of ganks. You care more about the Hecarim positioning and more about dodging the Skarner.

Sufficient differences that he is a worthwhile champion in his own right. Truthfully it is a champion I would like to play. I want this Skarner to happen.

Some notes about this new Skarner.
Q becomes the less likely to build ability. It has good sustained AoE damage, but that is really it. Building it later will allow him to scale well late-game as larger teamfights become more common.

This means that more build paths develop. Jungling likes that AoE for faster clears - and its even better at it due to the AS increase now. Where you stop getting it becomes a more interesting build decision, while power in mid-game comes from how many ranks he has in his E and W.

I truly believe that this rework is underappreciated. It is not permaslow skarner, but it maintains many of the same utilities.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The attack speed numbers on Q were actually much higher in the earlier iterations of the new kit. He was totally OP in our playtests, and dominating in every phase of the game.
I put up some numbers just to show about what atk speed we talk and I think it speaks for itself.
These are the atk speed values of most junglers who have an atk speed steroid.
The steroid of the champion is already in the value.
All champions except new Skarner and Volibear get these numbers instant.
9,988 new Skarner
0,989 Diana
1,161 old Skarner
1,223 Jarvan
1,237 Vi
1,243 Lee Sin
1,351 Volibear
1,417 Udyr
1,536 Trundle


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuxman View Post
I put up some numbers just to show about what atk speed we talk and I think it speaks for itself.
Here is are those ones that have a low CD(under 4 second) AoE damage ability.
Skarner.

Lets just rank all of those champions in terms of AoE damage per second from abilities.(rounded)
(At Rank 5, because you decided to go down that road).
New Skarner: 100
Udyr: 80
Diana: 75

I am only comparing the top ones too.

Not all aspects are equal. Comparing a single element leads to an incomplete view. Junglers are not raw AS.

There a number of features for each to care about. Just focusing on a single aspect is stupid.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysan Marquise View Post
Not all aspects are equal. Comparing a single element leads to an incomplete view. Junglers are not raw AS.

There a number of features for each to care about. Just focusing on a single aspect is stupid.
The fact that Scruffy needed to reduce the atk speed with no damage compensation proves you wrong.

There is not more AE damage on Skarner after the rework its less than he has now because it’s linked to his atk speed.
And the numbers just prove that that little atk Speed is clearly not overpowered.

Its all just to prove that this is a nerf,
all these changes are sold as a compensation for the lose of Skarners perma slow,
but in the end he looses the slow and gets nerfed for it.
Lose/Lose situation for Skarner, hooray!


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Lets just ask theoretically.

In what ways to you believe this is a buff to Skarner? Any?


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ScarecrowJames

Senior Member

08-23-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner? He isn't a humanoid champion something which seems to be rare as of late. His R is awesome if the champion didn't flash out of it. Pulling an adc and watch as it dies. HE clears the jungle fast too
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner? His e heals very little and does no damage and uses to much mana and its waste potential damage use of mana you need for your "Q" You would think it would be great for the jungle sustain or in lane but its useless as you Need to hit with it then auto attack it again(or kill with the E) I never get E ever I either build Q or W or R, once I max all my other skills then I get my E cause Its all I can level up and even then I don't even use it...to much mana cost and low damage output. He is a bit slow but i think its a fair perk for his fast jungler clear. Kited to easy like most close range champs.
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner? His R is annoying but its what make him fun but simple cc stops him from pulling to close to team or even use it so tbh its not that troubling especially with a proper snare or Ezreal with that slowing gauntlet...or Ashe...
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? yeah Fiddlesticks, Sejuani, Hecarim...the list can go on Why?

Fiddlsticks has better sustain His W puts Skarner E to absolute **** He even carries silence (E)that can hit multiples dealing a lot of damage and preventing more enemies from using skills while can be more useful than Skarners R.
Fiddles Q does what skarner Ult does with a shorter CD. True the enemy runs around in a random direction but the CD outclasses skarner and tbh Fiddles Fear is by far one of the best if not best cc in the game.
Fiddles R deals tons of AOE damage something skarner cant do. I can go on for other champions but...

how to change Skarner for the better?
E needs less Mana cost or More HP regain and the auto attack to gain HP for E is just too risky against ranged champions it needs to go away.

Sejuani R stuns and or slows making Skarner 1 person ult too situational unless you can find someone alone or they extended to hard but thats good for any jungler\

clearing the jungle as fast as you can is the best way about jungling and picking E over Q or W is just.....not useful when your W gives you attack speed and extra hp when used and Q is so damaging