Skarner, I miss your kind

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Raptamei

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
In his pre rework design, he has tremendous attack speed IF he can keep his shield up. This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.
I dunno bro, what you call confusing I call an interesting tactical decision, and what you call streamlined I call perhaps even mindless. Derp I have a shield I press shield when I get hit derp derp derp. Abilities like rampage and spirit of dread for instance might as well just be passives for all the decision points they (do not) add.


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Onimus Terlain

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Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The attack speed numbers on Q were actually much higher in the earlier iterations of the new kit. He was totally OP in our playtests, and dominating in every phase of the game.

Skarner's damage doesn't come from his auto attacks primarily. The reason, as many of you experienced Skarner players know, that Skarner scales very well with attack speed is because of the -1s (0.5 on minions) that it applies to his spell cooldowns.

The exact numbers aren't final, but the 1% nerf on his base attack speed is a direction that we tried out and liked. We thought it was much cooler for Skarner to have slightly lower base attack speed and potentially scale up to higher numbers once he has been fighting for a few seconds.

In his pre rework design, he has tremendous attack speed IF he can keep his shield up. This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.

Additionally, a lot of the feedback on Skarner was that he has a very feast or famine gameplay. In one case, Skarner is ahead and he has a huge attack speed buff that is further increasing his lead. In the other, Skarner is losing and he can't even use his attack speed buff because the shield is broken very quickly.

With this problem in mind, the change does intentionally lower Skarner's attack speed in the best case scenario (shield is up for full duration). But the changes also bring an increase to the average attack speed and lower the standard deviation.

I'd like to continue to discuss the merits and problems with the proposed changes, and I have been seriously considering every argument made. Also, I don't have any exact dates for when he will be on the PBE yet, but I will let you know as soon as I find out.

Edit: The E still has it's old cast time, but it has extended range and a slow so if you hit, you can easily reach the target.
Let me first say that Riot’s rework of Skarner so far has been nothing short of genius.
As a jungle man and a former skarner player (the gap closers on every single champ made me shelf him for a while.) I can say that you have fixed the top 5 most frustrating aspects of skarner all at the same time:

1. His E used to be 100% worthless, making leveling it a formality. By adding the slow to it, it now has meaning.


2. His slow was very difficult to use appropriately during pre 6 ganks. As I stated above, every champion and their brother has a gap closer of some kind so going up and procing TWO Qs on one target was almost impossible unless they are just insanely pushed way past the river or if you are able to proc a Q on the minions on your way to the champ, a very circumstantial situation. Now it has much longer range and is able to be inflicted much more easily.


3. Gap closing away from my ult and I can’t do anything about it. For the longest time ever since Skarner was changed so that he no longer drags people back from their flash (admittedly unfair) all you had to do was save your dash for when skarner ults, you have a good 2 seconds to react because of the animation, if you gap close away, you just neutralized a skarner gank. I know skarner flash + ult will actually be a threat to enemy champions now, whereas before all you had to do was save shadow dash or whatever other blink for his flash, then use it. Boom. Skarner’s flash is down, you lose nothing. Very well done on the ult.


4. The attack speed and shield being on the same ability. I never liked when champions have this problem. Their steroids rest on their capability to keep their shield active. The three other examples I can think of right now are Janna, Nautilus and Sion. They each have a buff that is significant to their kit that loses all effectiveness if you can eat through their shield. With Janna, her or her teammate’s AD buff goes away when her shield runs out. With Nautilus, 90% of his damage is taken away when his shield is popped. And with Sion (AP Sion anyway) at least 50% of his damage is removed when you pop his shield. Skarner used to be in the same boat. He’d lose his gap closing MS boost and his AS boost for procing his passive more if you did ~50-200 damage to him. That was incredibly frustrating and you’ve done a good job of changing that about him.

a. As a Nautilus main, I understand the concept of sub optimal utilization of shields. With Nautilus, should you use your W to help mitigate damage during an initiation? Should you save it for when they are no longer attacking you to optimize the damage it can spit out? It’s a very frustrating mechanic on this game and I LOVE that you are removing it from Skarner. Kudos.


5. And finally, you gave his shield an MS boost that is actually meaningful. As I’ve mentioned multiple times, this game has become infested with gap closers, and a 15 / 17 / 19 / 21 / 23% MS boost did absolutely nothing to help Skarner. When you have champs like Hecarim with his 25%-75% ramp up MS (at freaking level 1), Volibear with his 30% / 35% / 40% / 45% / 50% MS (with a flip attached), Rammus with his 3%-165% ramp up MS or Evelynn with her 30 / 40 / 50 / 60 / 70% MS (at no cost) there was no way Skarner could compete for equivalent ganking and chasing potential. Now he has 24/28/32/36/40% MS, which, at level 1, is already stronger than his old W at level 5.


You guys get it. I am so happy with every single change here. You all know exactly what this champion needed. Good job.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by CeriumX View Post
Do you know how HARD it actually is to pull off a permaslow situation as Skarner against good players?
Isn't this the point? He either does really well, or really terrible. There is no consistency, and much of that is dependent on the skill of the enemy rather than the skill of the Skarner player. That stinks of bad champion design.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzokuken View Post
Olaf/Mundo Ganks explanation:

Show up and throw axe: did you hit?, follow your gank ~ did you miss? go back into the jungle and pretend you didnt even show up

Difference being, Mundo and Olaf have pretty low Cooldowns on their axes, and Olaf can even pick it up if he didnt throw it too far
Olaf and Mundo don't have a huge speed buff to come tearing out of the river bush with, close some distance and then fire off the skillshot when the chances of missing are much lower.

Mundo's Cleaver stops on the first target hit as well, unlike Olaf and Skarner which pass through their targets. Both Olaf and Skarner have means to lower the cooldown through other means.

That said, it could be a problem if the missile speed is unreliable. Right now, I'm picturing something akin to a single-line Lulu Q, which would be pretty terrible.


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IS1f715232b540cb2fffcee

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
There are a few reasons why the attack speed on Q has been more consistent and powerful for Skarner.

-Skarner players level Q before W typically, gaining the attack speed earlier in the game. This is also great for his jungle clear times, and early lane dominance (if he's laning).
Before skarner would max out at level 12 but now you have to put points into E aswell as q and w. This means midgame you either have to give up durability and mobility or aditional damage and a stronger slow just for a different attackspeed steroid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
-The attack speed buff is no longer reliant on his shield. In late game fights or duels, Skarner's shield was only up for ~3s. 24% attack speed all the time is stronger than 50% attack speed for 3s out of every 18s.
But the new attack speed steriod isn't up all the time. It has a ramp up time of up to 7 seconds.
The attackspeed steroid on the shield gets its full use right of the bat and saying it's uptime is only 3 out of every 18 seconds is just plain wrong. In the jungle once you put a few points in w the shield doesn't break anymore so it lasts for 6 seconds and with cdr and Energize the cooldown can be significently reduced to the point where the shield has a 100% uptime.

There are also situations when fighting champions where your shield isn't going to break like ganking, peeling or chasing fleeing enemys.

Don't get me wrong, I like the changes to his kit. I just think the numbers seem to be pretty low. Even at max rank having to rank up merly 24% by stacking it 3 times seems like a joke. The 4% per stack you get on rank 1 will hardly even be noticeable.

Also: I'd like you to try out having E slow for a higher ammount but the slow decaying over time. A strong slow early would make it better for tagging a target with it to then quickly close the gap and ult them. Repeadetly slowing them with it would have a simular effect like Olaf's Undertow where you get an increased reward for repeatedly landing the skillshot but the enemy also having an easier time dodgeing it because of the lesser sloweffect at the end of the duration.

Oh, and still not a fan of ramping up movespeed on the shield. Just like you said. it hardly ever lasts longer then 3 seconds in teamfights where skarner gets kited heavily.


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Invisibible

Junior Member

08-23-2013

My poor skarner... I relied on that heal a lot more than you guys seem to believe T.T Very clutch in brawls...


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Khmera

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Having Q on E is a crutch. Using this spell delays your attack time, Q should keep it's slow and slow every other Q. If RiotScruffy really wants a slow on E he can put it there, as a nerfed slow that only slows on impact while Q slows decay over time. Wondering how the heal will work on W still. I think making Skarner regenerate health faster as his Exoskeleton persists would be better, so there would be a movement speed benefit plus a health regen benefit as W lasts.


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Malgana

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiketheCar View Post
Hopefully, the basic premise of his kit will remain the same. The cooldown passive of his might make the E more capable of locking up than the old Q because of its range. At the very least, give him a chance before you discard him completely.
You're missing the point though, he no longer has sticking power at all.
His movement? gone with the shield.
His slow? it's a one time use skill shot.

He can no longer stick to targets which is why people bought him in the first place.
Riot wants to kill the champions design just so all the people who never play him and ***** about how he's UP will play him for a week then go back to their mains and leave him 100% unused just like Karma and Trundle.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malgana View Post
Riot wants to kill the champions design just so all the people who never play him and ***** about how he's UP will play him for a week then go back to their mains and leave him 100% unused just like Karma and Trundle.
That, and the comment we will than get is:
“Skarner is not bad, he is just a niche pick and needs no buff.”


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Rysan Marquise

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Do not compare this to the Karma rework. They are night and day.

Allow me to compare several scenarios.


1: Skarner is ganking someone.

Version 1: Current
1: He must close in on the target using his W.
2: He, upon getting into close range must succeed in getting off 2 Qs before he can begin constantly slowing his enemy.
or
2: He can ult the enemy at this same range, disabling them.
3: If his shield currently lasts, he can use it to gain a notable attack speed boost.
4: His opponent either duels skarner when slowed or attempts to retreating during a permanent slow.
Skarner's ability to win this duel is hyperbolic in a sense. The more he wins the more easily he wins.
5: Afterwards he can use his E to slowly recover.

Version 2: Rework
1: He must close in on his target using W. He is faster for this purpose - markedly.
2: He must close in to a range where he can E them. This initial engagement is far more effective than current baseline skarner.
3: He may now upon catching up to them ult them or fight them.
4: He builds up a small attack speed boost over a few seconds. There is no notable window before he escalates or meaningful escalation unlike the charging of Q prior(though that only is true when he didnt have minions to prep him)
His dueling ability is markedly less hyperbolic. It is more consistent regardless of opponent. His ganking ability is similar, but generally improved.

Before: Chain slow. Stronger difference between winning and losing. Less of a flow to the uses of his abilities, perhaps more choices.

After: Long range slow, better ganks. Worse at dueling against weak foes.


Now lets take teamfights:

Situation 1: Current
1: Skarner uses W to engage enemy team.
2: Skarner picks off enemy with R or moves into group and begins chain slowing.
3: He is auto-attacking because it reduces his cooldowns, but he very rarely has his shield up enough to get an AS boost.

Situation 2: Rework
1: Skarner may use W to engage, or may use E to engage.
2: Skarner picks of enemy with R or moves into group with more potent auto-atacks.
3: Skarner is better able to disengage from foes (E has a more potent slow, W lower CD and higher potential speed boost with more health), though less able to peel *assuming he got into melee against that opponent.

Before: Keep entire enemy team chain slowed.
After: More AS, more choices in fight, more ability builds viable, better able to affect a non-clumped together team.


Now, personally, I would rather these mana cost reductions were reverted and he got better AS, but I really think this is a better Skarner design.


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SacredB0B

Member

08-23-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Peeling late game for your carry, no one gets through!

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Having a useless E, and ult being cast but cancels with jumps/dashes leaving you just sitting looking dumb.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Ill get back to you once i play against one...

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Any tanky bruiser with a gap closer, everyone now a days has a jump or dash which makes skarner kiteable without ms items (with leaves him less tanky).

On a side note the new iceborn gauntlet is a great buff for skarner.