Skarner, I miss your kind

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Locke64

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The attack speed numbers on Q were actually much higher in the earlier iterations of the new kit. He was totally OP in our playtests, and dominating in every phase of the game.

Skarner's damage doesn't come from his auto attacks primarily. The reason, as many of you experienced Skarner players know, that Skarner scales very well with attack speed is because of the -1s (0.5 on minions) that it applies to his spell cooldowns.

The exact numbers aren't final, but the 1% nerf on his base attack speed is a direction that we tried out and liked. We thought it was much cooler for Skarner to have slightly lower base attack speed and potentially scale up to higher numbers once he has been fighting for a few seconds.

In his pre rework design, he has tremendous attack speed IF he can keep his shield up. This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.

Additionally, a lot of the feedback on Skarner was that he has a very feast or famine gameplay. In one case, Skarner is ahead and he has a huge attack speed buff that is further increasing his lead. In the other, Skarner is losing and he can't even use his attack speed buff because the shield is broken very quickly.

With this problem in mind, the change does intentionally lower Skarner's attack speed in the best case scenario (shield is up for full duration). But the changes also bring an increase to the average attack speed and lower the standard deviation.

I'd like to continue to discuss the merits and problems with the proposed changes, and I have been seriously considering every argument made. Also, I don't have any exact dates for when he will be on the PBE yet, but I will let you know as soon as I find out.

Edit: The E still has it's old cast time, but it has extended range and a slow so if you hit, you can easily reach the target.
Thanks for the explanation and the info about E. I do agree with the reasoning about the AS. It didn't make sense for W to have the AS boost. My concern is that having it ramp up on Q would have the same problem of having "tremendous attack speed IF he can" stick long enough to build the stacks and even then stick well enough (close enough) to take full advantage of these stacks in a chase scenario. A 24% AS boost is worthless if he spends 50% of his time catching up to his slowed target.


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Justaco

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke64 View Post
Thanks for the explanation and the info about E. I do agree with the reasoning about the AS. It didn't make sense for W to have the AS boost. My concern is that having it ramp up on Q would have the same problem of having "tremendous attack speed IF he can" stick long enough to build the stacks and even then stick well enough (close enough) to take full advantage of these stacks in a chase scenario. A 24% AS boost is worthless if he spends 50% of his time catching up to his slowed target.
Sure the AS won't help him if he can't stick to his target, but his kit is still able to maintain that chase potential. His permaslow is gone, but he still has a slow and movement speed buff to keep up. Then you just throw in a Frozen Mallet and he will stick like glue.


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Felfire

Senior Member

08-22-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
In his pre rework design, he has tremendous attack speed IF he can keep his shield up. This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.
Except I dont see it as confusing. I see it as a gameplay option. You can either block some damage. Or gain an attack speed buff.


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lightingsky

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Member

08-22-2013

I have a question, when you decide to move his slow to E, have you think about how it will change his team fight style and ability. You kept saying how his target and himself gonna feel when he chases his target, but you did not mention his Q's another important function.

His old play style in team fight is protecting ADC by keeping enemies slow, but I do not think his new abilities can do the same thing as well as before. Its CD is too long and the slow time is too short. And as a tank jungler, there is nothing else he can do. Unless we build more AP/AS items, and go to chase enemy ADC. His new abilities look like can do this well. But it change his play style too much, and I do not like it. I want to protect my allies and I enjoy that feeling, I think some other Skarner players have the same feeling.

Please think about it, Riot.

Thank you for reading and sorry for my bad English


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Stampede EU

Senior Member

08-23-2013

@RiotScruffy

Like someone already mentioned, I hope you will be handing out refunds for the champion and the skins. I want nothing to do with this new Skarner, and this isn't even "content is subject to change" - this is me buying a car and then you giving me a god damn moped after 2 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justaco View Post
Sure the AS won't help him if he can't stick to his target, but his kit is still able to maintain that chase potential. His permaslow is gone, but he still has a slow and movement speed buff to keep up. Then you just throw in a Frozen Mallet and he will stick like glue.
Yeah, and an ADC has **** damage, but then you just throw in a few items and they are fine too.


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
This can create some optimization confusion for a few reasons:

-Should I use my shield to block damage? This is ideal use of the shield mitigation, but it will break.
-Should I use my shield when I am not taking damage for the attack speed? This is great for the attack speed buff, but the shield has provided me sub optimal mitigation.

Moving the attack speed to Q has remedied this confusing element of his kit.
Just for the sake of comparison....

Kayle says:
-should I apply my heal to ally to help them chase down their opponent easier, even if they are at full health?
-should I save my shield for somebody who is less than full health, but won't benefit from the movespeed (because they are toe-to-toe dueling somebody)

Also, Kayle MS's buff is instant. By the same logic that is being used in this rework, that is a "get out of jail free card" right?

Kayle: 240 extra health, current Skarner: 250, rework 280
Kayle: 30% instant MS boost, current Skarner: 23% instant, rework 20% instant-40% after 3s
Kayle: 3s duration, both Skarners: 6s duration (twice as long is a big deal)
Kayle: 15s cooldown, current Skarner: 18s, rework 14s
Kayle: can be applied to self or allies, both Skarners: self-only

The point I'm trying to make is the Skarner's current shield mechanic allows the player to make strategic options. Seiging a turret? W for AS even though the shield isn't needed. Running from an enemy? W for MS, even though the AS isn't needed. Dueling somebody in toe-to-toe combat? W for both (and be thankful that it works that way!).


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The attack speed numbers on Q were actually much higher in the earlier iterations of the new kit. He was totally OP in our playtests, and dominating in every phase of the game. ....
Thank you for the clarification on the Q changes, now can we get some additional information on why his heal was removed?

As I explained in an earlier post, if Skarner is build with a Sheen as his only source of AP (which is fairly normal for jungle tank Skarner), this rework Skarner yields 132 less health than our current Skarner (even with the improved shield) is almost every teamfight.

-The suspicion is that it will also ruin Skarner's ability to play top lane right now (since playing top lane was heavily dependent on his ability to sustain)
-It will also ruin some of Skarner's synergy with Spirit Visage. Current Skarner greatly benefits from every stat that Spirit Visage offers, specially it's passive. Rework Skarner gets zero benefit from the passive.

I would be very nice if you could address this issue that this rework is lowering his tankiness, reducing his sustain to zero, and removing one entire form of scaling from his abilites... all without any kind of power adjustment to compensate. Is your opinion that Scarner's heal needs to be removed because it is overpowered?


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-23-2013

I feel I should add that one of the things that I love most about Skarner (and the thing that makes him unique) is that he is a tanky champion that gets more durable with more AP. With 40% CDR, a few defensive items and a decent amount of AP and you have an extremely resilient little bug that does a fair amount of damage. The only reason this works is because of the AP scaling on both his W and his E.

Are there any other tanky champs that work like that? Diana comes to mind, but it seems like she is picked mostly for her damage, not for her tankiness.

I guess I feel like if these changes go through, my favorite part of my favorite champion is going to be taken out of the game. If the changes go live I'll give it a try and give it a fair chance. But I honestly don't believe that these changes are going to improve Skarner's win rate, which in turn means that his pick rate isn't going to improve.

In my dream or dreams, this Skarner rework would be put on the table and an alternate rework would be developed using some of the communities ideas (mostly just tweaking his existing numbers) for the sake of comparison. Then the two could be compared and the best chosen between the two.


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Cuxman

Senior Member

08-23-2013

The whole new kid just makes Skarner the slowest reacting champion on the field.
Q takes 3 uses for full effect.
W takes 2 seconds for full effect.

You never react to the fact that Skarner will be a jungler with zero tower pushing power.

His whole Crystal Slash was designed to give him permaslow,
thatís why you have so little range with the slow,
thatís why you only make full damage after two hits
and thatís why you only slow after two hits.

Now that you take that from him, we get nothing back for it.
In fact you even take more from Skarner, no more sustain,
lower atk speed, more mana and skill point costs.

And you say he was to strong in your tests with stats that are closer to the actual numbers?
Have you guys tested how Skarner is now; you might find that he is even now much overpowered and than give the whole project to someone else.


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t4tNoFp4Ve

Senior Member

08-23-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post

Edit: The E still has it's old cast time, but it has extended range and a slow so if you hit, you can easily reach the target.
You are reducing it's width and it's misile speed right?

Im really liking the changes, but having cast time, on such a narrow (it's already REALLY narrow) and SLOW (yes, it's hella slow already as well), with cast animation is gonna kill Skarner

If he can't have permaslow, and his slow is now compromised on such a dificul skillshot, he really needs free cast on it, otherwise it will be a WAY worse version of Olaf/Mundo ganks

Olaf/Mundo Ganks explanation:

Show up and throw axe: did you hit?, follow your gank ~ did you miss? go back into the jungle and pretend you didnt even show up

Difference being, Mundo and Olaf have pretty low Cooldowns on their axes, and Olaf can even pick it up if he didnt throw it too far