Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Staples

Junior Member

08-21-2013

I doubt this will be read because there are almost 200 pages of comments, but here it goes anyways.
I may not be the best player (Plat 1), but I have a lot of experience with skarner. Most likely over 1,000 games including normals. If the Riot team making these changes are set on their purpose and will not be willing to just give him a small buff (maybe add the root and lower W cd by a couple of seconds) and leave him as is, then I guess I will just add my opinion on the one that is being play tested. Does Skarner still stop moving even he casts his E his playtest state? I hardly ever cast E atm
purely because the cast animation on it is annoying and when the whole goal is the keep up with the enemy, standing still is counter-productive towards skarner's goal. If he has the ability to cast his E while still moving, I think that will be the biggest buff you could give him if you are putting the slow on his E.
This skarner that is being playtested just seems like the current skarner without a permaslow, which allows him to have all of his other skills slightly buffed in order to compensate, and then awkwardly shifting around the side-effects of the spells to other places.
Just a suggestion. Maybe split the slow onto Q and E and make them additive to each other, so each spell gets 15/17.5/20/22.5/25 percent. This will allow skarner to have some type of perma slow, albiet a much weaker one, but allows skarner to keep his feel for what defines himself and allows for counterplay still because his slow won't be terribly strong.


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Roablin

Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Laning Skarner is a consideration that we've had and he's still as viable if not more than he was before. Being able to stack up the attack speed buff on Q makes you a very strong duelist. He makes up for his loss in sustain in other new ways. He wont be one of the most popular solo laners but he isn't totally unviable.
In what ways does he now make up for the lost sustain? I am not one to complain about the numbers on the shield, as I'm sure it works well in the jungle, but lane Skarner was all about sustaining through damage, not mitigating it. As a laner Skarner takes a ton of harass, because not only is he melee, but he has to wade into the middle of the enemy minion wave to use his crystal slash as wave clear. I'm certain that only a shield, no matter how large, will not make up for his ability to remove damage taken. You aren't expecting Skarner to only farm for the six seconds when his shield is up, are you?


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roablin View Post
In what ways does he now make up for the lost sustain? I am not one to complain about the numbers on the shield, as I'm sure it works well in the jungle, but lane Skarner was all about sustaining through damage, not mitigating it. As a laner Skarner takes a ton of harass, because not only is he melee, but he has to wade into the middle of the enemy minion wave to use his crystal slash as wave clear. I'm certain that only a shield, no matter how large, will not make up for his ability to remove damage taken. You aren't expecting Skarner to only farm for the six seconds when his shield is up, are you?

Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way


He loses a .6 AP ratio and a 60-180 heal for 5-30 more shield and .2 more ratio on that same shield?

Heal removed (power moved into W shield) That's what you valued my .6 heal ratio and 60-180 heal? 5-30 shield and .2 ap? I'm so lost at this reasoning.


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Majin Bl3u

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Basically the slow moved to E address these 2 problems:

1) How can we remove his permaslow so that we can buff the rest of his kit
2) How can we make the E not only useful, but to feel good when putting levels into it

When you think of it this way the conclusion seems rather obvious (and that's exactly why the kit is how it is now).

The main complaint about E however has been completely avoided by Scruffy. Scruffy, will you be removing the cast time on E so that Skarner doesn't stop mid chase to fire the slow??


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nickeput

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Member

08-21-2013

Seeing as there is obviously no hope to stopping the changes being proposed and keeping Skarner as he is but buffing and fixing his current kit; possibly by just returning him to how he was V1.0.0.127 but with mana on q being 18 at all levels instead of 15 and making e instant cast or cast while moving.

Is there going to be any effort on Riot's part to refund both Skarner's original purchase price and his skins to players who are not happy with the rework? Because I will try the new Skarner no matter what but as far as I'm concerned he is not the champion I bought him for and without that I would of never bought him or a skin for that matter.

V1.0.0.127

Attack speed per level increased to 2.1% from 1.44%
Energize will no longer activate when attacking turrets.
Crystal Slash mana cost decreased to 15 at all ranks from 22/24/26/28/30
Fracture will now heal Skarner if Fracture kills its target.
Impale duration increased to 1.75 from 1.5 seconds


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An Alpaca

Member

08-21-2013

This rework is going to ruin Skarner, calling it now. Literally just played ranked as jungle Skarner and went massively positive each game.


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t4tNoFp4Ve

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post

Fracture (E)
-Mana cost reduced from 50/55/60/65/70 to 40/45/50/55/60
-Heal removed (power moved into W shield)
-Targets hit are slowed by 30/35/40/45/50% for 2.5s
-Missile range increased 800->1000
-Missile width reduced 120->90
-Missile speed reduced 1800->1700

-Team Skarner
Scruffy, sincerely, this is the only rework i've been exited about besides Sejuani's, im really liking your direction, and aparently, im not the only one (since you're not getting downvoted and flamed into oblivion like Scarizard and his Rengar massive gutting), keep the good work

But now, an important question:

Will fracture still have a cast time? or will it be "free" like Darius' Q, or Katarina's W?

That would make it or break it for Skarner when trying to catch enemies ~ since having to stop, cast, then continue running could be really painful for him, specially if you had to use shield to get close, then lose half the shield's duration because of having to stop to cast the slow


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Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxSylphxx View Post
My problem with these changes are NOT that they are nerfs. Frankly, I couldn't much care less whether my win ratio goes up or down provided I'm having fun with Skarner.

Removing Diversity (Q)
My problem is specifically that you are removing his identity with the nerf to his Q. His uniqueness. Effectively, you're making him another nocturne. Another Leesin. Another Malphite. Another Nasus. Another Amumu. As a player that uses *all* 114 champions of the game, if I want to play a jungler that clears well, and ganks with a linear skillshot slow followed by a brief exchange before players flash for safety and I flash to follow up for a kill, I'll play leesin/amumu/nocturne etc. As a player that uses all champions, it starts to become very clear which are unique, and which just feel like everybody else. Poppy, for example, is unique, her kit let's her do things that other champions can't do, yet she is still balanced and is not too powerful. Skarner, too, is unique. Even pre-6 Skarner is fairly unique, because he actually has to close that gap (like udyr), whereas most heroes you make are given a free pass into melee range. In turn, he gets to stay close once he's there. Most videogame designers would pat themselves on the back for a job well-done and call it diversity. Riot, it seems, slaps a 'toxic' label on it (whatever it is that toxic is supposed to mean), and hammers the jagged, interesting shape into the grey mush that the 114 and growing pool of champions is becoming.

What is 'toxic', and counterplay
Speaking of 'toxic', I find it telling that you think Skarner's permaslow was frustrating to play against. I fail to believe your Q motivation origin story about the lack of counterplay, when in fact the counterplay is very specifically and visibly staying out of melee range of the angry scorpion (aint no burden of knowledge there!), given how kiteable Skarner is. Then you go on to list how kiteable Skarner is as a key point of irritation to Skarner players! You're removing the counterplay by giving him a ranged slow. Then you're removing all his power because you've given him a free way to close the gap. Skarner's permaslow HAD counterplay, and you just removed both the counterplay, and the slow itself! Basically, anything that doesn't play like your accepted, standard template for a character (i could write a form with tickboxes for each role cliche) gets 'reworked'. If you carry on we'll end up with 5 heroes, named top, mid, jungle, AD, and support, with 114 different 'skins' for each archetype. This is even more pronounced why I consider how most of the truly 'unique' champions are *old* (amumu, rammus, fiddle etc), and most new champions feature some kind of fancy gimick, but basically bring to the team fights exactly what anyone else in their role would bring (Khazix, Zac etc). Give up on the reworks. Let your game be diverse, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel when a simple fix would keep a lot more flavour in your game, and dissapoint a lot less of your customers. I feel that the diversity of LoL is shrinking as the champion pool grows larger, and these reworks have a lot to answer for!

Historical reworks - stealing people's hours of practice.
Worse, though, is the fact that you are carving through people's hard-earned skills with your reworks. A friend of mine mained Ryze until your rework made him a different champion. My friend misses Ryze, and while he did play the new Ryze, he had to move on to other heroes, and misses his old main. I saw no reason you couldn't have kept both (call him Ryze's brother and give him red skin or something). Same goes for Sivir (my brother pretty much quit league when she was changed, because he felt riot had stolen his 6 months of practice with her). I used to play a lot of support Karma. We had a wicked fun thing going with Karma+pantheon bottom lane, and had a good 70% win ratio with it! Now new Karma doesn't really offer anything that a million other midlane mages don't offer me. Victor, ziggs, brand, Cassio etc. So I don't much bother with her.
Do you really feel that Karma's rework was a success? Champion reworks don't pull a lot of new players, but they certainly dissapoint plenty, myself included.

Going forward
I haven't signed in to the forums for years, I just felt the need to represent the less vocal group of players, who don't necessarily feel that anything riot touches is automatically a good thing. If you're so intent on the fun behind a linear skillshot slow, why don't you make a new champion with it? Why ruin years of player experience just so that you can make a somewhat unique champion the same as everyone else?
I really hope, beyond hope, that you'll reconsider how deeply you've gone in fixing skarner, but I appreciate it's too late in the day to hold out much hope. In turn, though, I'd love to effect your stance on reworks in future, because I don't feel they are good for heroes in the long run, and it seems they are getting less popular as each new rework is released.
I'm glad that many players of league will be happy with the new Skarner. Power to them! I just feel you could have offered a fresh new champion with all the ideas you've mentioned (and gained support for) in this thread, without having to damage the experience of skarner players that actually liked him how he was (and you'll probably find there are a lot in that camp, too)

I hope you can take this criticism in the hopeful and positive light in which it's intended. I do, in the end, want league to be fun for everyone, which I'm sure is what we're all after.

All the best! x
This guy needs to be given a cookie. I agree 100% with everything he said.


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tolore

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Senior Member

08-21-2013

removing the slow on Q was like, the one and only thing everyone asked not to do, I can't imagine liking/playing Skarnar without it. His only hard CC is his ult and he has no gap closer, the counterplay for skarnar already existed. His passive and his Q require him to be on you constantly, which was cool and synergistic when he could, y'know actually stick and constantly be attacking/Qing.


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Vivi R66

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Q does magic damage extra still?


And talking about numbers, i know they might change, but this is my opnion:

Attack speed was reduced, from 50% to 24%, and you lost base attack speed for that... I dunno if thats because now you can keep the attack speed refreshed, and it doesnt go away when you take damage, but either way its kinda iffy. Diana has passive 20% attack speed ALL TIMES, 24% sounds very low, specially losing base attack speed, as that is what multiplies all other attack speed, makign those 24% be LESS than before.

W buffs doesnt compensate the lack of heal very well, the heal early was 30~40 sustain easily until level 12, and 90 heal singletarget, that shield buff feels too small if the objective was compensate that... its not even half.

The E width is a major concern of mine, I completelly hate to play nocturne, cause his Q is too narrow, i go do wraiths and never hit all 4, bexause that bull**** is so narrow lol, i dont want that to be Skarners case... I will repeat again, i want Skarner not Nocturne, i feel his ganks will be much alike, "Land your narrow skill shot or enemy gets away and you did no real damage cause you are need to stay close, your damage sustained not burst".

And Mana Costs!, 4 mana saved every Q, E not needed for sustain but uses 10 less mana... Dunno if that fixes his major mana issues. He goes out of mana WITH BLUE if he uses all his skills to keep sustain on live. I am not sure thats enought but her is to hoping so.


EDIT: Of course, tell me he can use his E while moving, so that he is a very mobile champion, and then i might be able to enjoy it.