Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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doombotMECHA

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Senior Member

08-21-2013

permaslow on spamtanks is literally the point of iceborn


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowcide View Post
Would be different. You'd have to be in AA range, wouldn't be aoe, and it's still a huge lost because it comes with a substantial gold investment.
So buying items is a loss? I meant Iceborn Gauntlet, not fist, I apologize for the confusion. Yes, you have to actually get off an auto-attack, but Skarner's Q was so small previously, that barely makes a difference. Not to mention he can proc the fist on every single cooldown. Once you land that first auto-attack, save for blowing an escape they're not getting away.

I don't see it as a 'loss' or 'substantial gold investment' because he needs those stats from somewhere anyway.


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Crowcide

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redenbacher View Post
So buying items is a loss? I meant Iceborn Gauntlet, not fist, I apologize for the confusion. Yes, you have to actually get off an auto-attack, but Skarner's Q was so small previously, that barely makes a difference. Not to mention he can proc the fist on every single cooldown. Once you land that first auto-attack, save for an escape they're not getting away.
The range on the q made a HUGE difference for chasing. It basically gave you that distance to close for free.

And don't try and misrepresent my claims - you understood that I wasn't saying "items are bad on skarner". Buying frozen mallet or ice born gauntlet isn't a replacement for a true perma-slow in his kit for two reasons.

-Skarner could of bought these items before to have an even more powerful slow. For example if you compare IBG skarner pre and post rework it's a large nerf to his slow.
-It has opportunity cost, let's say you need a frozen mallet now to feel like you perma-slow where before you didn't. That means your forced to sacrifice gold that could be spent else where. You're giving up a Randuin's Omen to gain a slow effect to replace your old one.


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Raiyn

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Laning Skarner is a consideration that we've had and he's still as viable if not more than he was before. Being able to stack up the attack speed buff on Q makes you a very strong duelist. He makes up for his loss in sustain in other new ways. He wont be one of the most popular solo laners but he isn't totally unviable.


Could you explain to me how removing
Max Heal: 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 / 180 (+ 60% AP)

And transferring it to his

W:Shield value increased from 70/115/160/205/250 to 75/125/175/225/280
-Shield AP ratio increased from 0.6 to 0.8

Is at all fair?

He loses a .6 AP ratio and a 60-180 heal for 5-30 more shield and .2 more ratio on that same shield?

Heal removed (power moved into W shield) That's what you valued my .6 heal ratio and 60-180 heal? 5-30 shield and .2 ap? I'm so lost at this reasoning.


I know I don't play lane skarner frequently - he's niche but very fun imo it was already hard enough to lane as is; the only thing that kept him viable up top especially early game was that strong 60 HP lv 1 heal.. and the response is to remove it and trade with 5 extra shield strength and .2 ratio? 5 shield? Huh???

- He was already getting more than enough AS top from his early game shield, the shield stayed on long enough to fit the short duel style of top lane. Trade>>>get out>>heal it back.

This is how dueling as skarner worked heck dueling in general is not a lengthy process--- you dueled as Skarner, then went to a wave E healed (maybe a champ was there too which would be awesome/what you strive for) and then Q'ed to start a new duel shortly after.

With these changes it will look like this now >>>duel>>>lose because skarner won't have surprise heal/element of surprise/sustain>> can't re-duel because he can't heal.

The counterplay/counter to skarner top will now just be>>>engage, get slowed for 2.5 > run away>>reengage and win. Short duels that will work out always in the oppositions favour with skarner having no chance to really retaliate or recuperate to fight again.

AS on hit doesn't work up top lane, Volibear doesn't work vs a handful of champions/smart players because once they see you start stacking...they back away. And without a perma-slow like old skarner they will just walk away after 2.5 seconds so that your AS bonus is useless.


Skarner's heal wasn't iconic or an amazing part of his kit for the jungle I get that. But it was cool top lane. You just did a classic swing of the nerf bat during a remake *assuming this useless Heal removed (power moved into W shield) 5-30 shield, .2 ap)* change goes through.


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Redenbacher

Senior Member

08-21-2013

I agree that it made a difference for chasing, but previously he also had a smaller speed boost and no means to slow his target from afar. You now have a 1000 range line-nuke that slows for 50% and a much larger speed buff (after 3 seconds, unfortunately). In other words, a much reliable means of actually closing the gap (perhaps not reliable enough, but that remains to be seen).

I'm not sure that it's a 'huge nerf to his slow', because previously, he actually had to close the gap to slow them to begin with, which was incredibly unreliable.

Once your gap is closed, now you have the weakness of sticking power, which is arguably pretty glaring right now. However, three facts remain - you needed mana, armor, and cooldown reduction on Skarner no matter which item you picked up. It just so happens that Iceborn has all of those things, plus a spammable slow. The AP is not wasted by any stretch of the imagination, and the item is cost efficient without it's passive. Therefore, the opportunity cost is low, if even apparent.

I do agree that on paper, the AS buff needs to be increased dramatically, and unless the cooldown on E is low enough to reapply in seconds, it won't be enough to maintain sticking power. In theory, if you can get off 3 auto-attacks it'll be ready fairly quickly, but I'm not sure how that will play out in reality.

We can't lose sight of his passive's impact on these cooldowns.


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xxSylphxx

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Senior Member

08-21-2013

My problem with these changes are NOT that they are nerfs. Frankly, I couldn't much care less whether my win ratio goes up or down provided I'm having fun with Skarner.

Removing Diversity (Q)
My problem is specifically that you are removing his identity with the nerf to his Q. His uniqueness. Effectively, you're making him another nocturne. Another Leesin. Another Malphite. Another Nasus. Another Amumu. As a player that uses *all* 114 champions of the game, if I want to play a jungler that clears well, and ganks with a linear skillshot slow followed by a brief exchange before players flash for safety and I flash to follow up for a kill, I'll play leesin/amumu/nocturne etc. As a player that uses all champions, it starts to become very clear which are unique, and which just feel like everybody else. Poppy, for example, is unique, her kit let's her do things that other champions can't do, yet she is still balanced and is not too powerful. Skarner, too, is unique. Even pre-6 Skarner is fairly unique, because he actually has to close that gap (like udyr), whereas most heroes you make are given a free pass into melee range. In turn, he gets to stay close once he's there. Most videogame designers would pat themselves on the back for a job well-done and call it diversity. Riot, it seems, slaps a 'toxic' label on it (whatever it is that toxic is supposed to mean), and hammers the jagged, interesting shape into the grey mush that the 114 and growing pool of champions is becoming.

What is 'toxic', and counterplay
Speaking of 'toxic', I find it telling that you think Skarner's permaslow was frustrating to play against. I fail to believe your Q motivation origin story about the lack of counterplay, when in fact the counterplay is very specifically and visibly staying out of melee range of the angry scorpion (aint no burden of knowledge there!), given how kiteable Skarner is. Then you go on to list how kiteable Skarner is as a key point of irritation to Skarner players! You're removing the counterplay by giving him a ranged slow. Then you're removing all his power because you've given him a free way to close the gap. Skarner's permaslow HAD counterplay, and you just removed both the counterplay, and the slow itself! Basically, anything that doesn't play like your accepted, standard template for a character (i could write a form with tickboxes for each role cliche) gets 'reworked'. If you carry on we'll end up with 5 heroes, named top, mid, jungle, AD, and support, with 114 different 'skins' for each archetype. This is even more pronounced why I consider how most of the truly 'unique' champions are *old* (amumu, rammus, fiddle etc), and most new champions feature some kind of fancy gimick, but basically bring to the team fights exactly what anyone else in their role would bring (Khazix, Zac etc). Give up on the reworks. Let your game be diverse, and stop trying to reinvent the wheel when a simple fix would keep a lot more flavour in your game, and dissapoint a lot less of your customers. I feel that the diversity of LoL is shrinking as the champion pool grows larger, and these reworks have a lot to answer for!

Historical reworks - stealing people's hours of practice.
Worse, though, is the fact that you are carving through people's hard-earned skills with your reworks. A friend of mine mained Ryze until your rework made him a different champion. My friend misses Ryze, and while he did play the new Ryze, he had to move on to other heroes, and misses his old main. I saw no reason you couldn't have kept both (call him Ryze's brother and give him red skin or something). Same goes for Sivir (my brother pretty much quit league when she was changed, because he felt riot had stolen his 6 months of practice with her). I used to play a lot of support Karma. We had a wicked fun thing going with Karma+pantheon bottom lane, and had a good 70% win ratio with it! Now new Karma doesn't really offer anything that a million other midlane mages don't offer me. Victor, ziggs, brand, Cassio etc. So I don't much bother with her.
Do you really feel that Karma's rework was a success? Champion reworks don't pull a lot of new players, but they certainly dissapoint plenty, myself included.

Going forward
I haven't signed in to the forums for years, I just felt the need to represent the less vocal group of players, who don't necessarily feel that anything riot touches is automatically a good thing. If you're so intent on the fun behind a linear skillshot slow, why don't you make a new champion with it? Why ruin years of player experience just so that you can make a somewhat unique champion the same as everyone else?
I really hope, beyond hope, that you'll reconsider how deeply you've gone in fixing skarner, but I appreciate it's too late in the day to hold out much hope. In turn, though, I'd love to effect your stance on reworks in future, because I don't feel they are good for heroes in the long run, and it seems they are getting less popular as each new rework is released.
I'm glad that many players of league will be happy with the new Skarner. Power to them! I just feel you could have offered a fresh new champion with all the ideas you've mentioned (and gained support for) in this thread, without having to damage the experience of skarner players that actually liked him how he was (and you'll probably find there are a lot in that camp, too)

I hope you can take this criticism in the hopeful and positive light in which it's intended. I do, in the end, want league to be fun for everyone, which I'm sure is what we're all after.

All the best! x


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

08-21-2013

RiotScruffy, if it's not too much trouble could you hit up the art team for the Fracture change? Currently it doesn't look like it'd be a spell that slows people. I think it'd be cool if they could put a simple "crystalized" partical effect around the legs of enemy champs that were hit by the new slow Fracture. Could probably just reuse the Crystalline skeleton/impale crystal particles to make it a painless thing to add. Maybe even change the projectile to resemble Glacial Malphite's projectile... except with crystals instead of ice. That one's not as important though.


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Baneson

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Picture this. Skarner in a white Doctor's coat. Who do you have?

(\/);,,;(\/)

Why not Zoidberg? Woopwoopwoopwoop!


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Battle Pope V2

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Theres really a few things that I dislike about skarner.

1) That E. Can we please allow him to cast his E while moving, I mean he is designed to chase, and the 1 second self stun while casting E, when your single purpose is to chase and stick to people, is pretty annoying. I honestly think the sustain it offers is underrated. I do feel like it still seems useless most of the early game though. Most skarner players wont even take a point in it until they absolutely have to, that should be a red flag.

2) His ult. I understand why you changed it so flash actually offers counter play...but why is it that this applies to no other champion. Flash while garen ults? Still get giant sword of death. Darius dunking you? Flash over a wall, he still goes space Jam on your ass. Voli and singed flip? Flash....still get the leap frog of death. So yes flashing away and getting grabbed is annoying, but honestly, with how short of a range it is, if you cant react and flash before he gets into melee range, you quite honestly deserve to be grabbed imo.

3) Mobility/gap closing power creep. J4 with multiple gap closers, zac with an amazing gap closer, hecahorse is practically skarners replacement. Even Sejuani has amazing aoe dmg, gap closers, and team utility out the ass. Skarner can run at you at 10 million miles an hour, but after W goes down he struggles with getting kited for days. In the games current state junglers need to be tanky, and they need team utility, so why would you pick skarner, a perma slow, over zac and his AoE knock up, or sej and her aoe stun?

4) Itemization. I personally feel like season 3 itemization doesnt benefit skarner like it does some of the more popular picks. I remember when S3 started and I tried out a ton of different builds on him, nothing seems to be as effective. He just doesnt seem to fit the "ancient golem, locket, randuins" build like so many of the other junglers do, and goood luck not getting a locket for mid game team fights, it will not end so well.

5) Ratios. I honestly wouldnt mind seeing him shifted away from the jungle and more into the role of an ap bruiser like rumble or diana. If skarner is actually allowed to build ap his abilities do a surprising amount of damage. From the few people I have seen try it he does seem to fall off a bit in the late game if going AP though.

I hope you guys come up with something to make him a viable jungle pick again. He was probably my second favorite jungler in season 2 next to Shyvana. I miss my kind....


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3mptylord

Senior Member

08-21-2013

Does Skarner's Q still have the empowerment stacks/bonus magic damage?

It'd be interesting if:
"If Crystal Slash hits an enemy, Skarner gains an empowerment stack for 6 seconds (up to 6 stacks). For every empowerment stack, Skarner gains 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 % bonus attack damage and Crystal Slash deals 5 / 8 / 11 / 14 / 17 (+8% AP) bonus magic damage. Maximum bonus damage of 30 / 48 / 66 / 84 / 102 (+48% AP)."

Just 'cause things like Nashor's Tooth and Wit's End could be extra cool on him. ^_^