Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arduno

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Cant wait to test this in PBE scruffy!!


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

lightdragoon88

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Name:  tumblr_lvs8a1AbCj1qkjfsyo1_400.jpg
Views: 474
Size:  41.6 KB


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Arny Palmy

Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
"I'm sorry that you would stop playing him, but I think there are thousands of people that would start playing him (or pick him up again)."

Is the point of the change to make a champion who isn't enjoyed by current Skarner players but is enjoyed by players who don't like the way Skarner is currently played? I don't see the point of that. If you want to make a champion for people who like a different playstyle, make that champion. For people who like this playstyle, keep Skarner as he is. The point shouldn't be about attracting the largest possible audience at the cost of core elements of Skarner (and it will, and I will say why later) it should be making sure that the people who enjoy this particular brand of champion are getting the most enjoyable champion they can have with the specific elements they enjoy about that champion.

"Not to mention that they all build damage and penetration while Skarner is building tanky."

If you're building pure tank on Skarner nowadays, you won't be successful. Skarner needs some damage. I recommend either Spirit of the Elder Lizard as a first/second item (synergizes really well with his Q and procs his E automatically), or picking up a Wit's End (vs magic damage when you were forced to build tanky early), Nashor's Tooth (if fed), Zephyr (if you don't have other sources of tenacity and really need the movement speed), or even just the very early Sheen. Pure tank won't work anymore after the resistances nerfs at the start of Season 3. Try building some damage mixed into your tank and then get into a fight with someone. You'll like the results.

(Also, building damage and penetration is kind of after the window we're talking about. Skarner's godlike dueling potential is at 0-2 items, after which he's only a great duelist. No penetration in the builds at that point.)

The reason Skarner is one of the best duelists in the game is because he wins almost any melee range fight. It's all about the interaction between the passive and the shield. The way to duel with Skarner is to let them put a bit of damage on you, and then use your shield for the steroid. With the time you spend under the shield, you'll be getting off more autoattacks, leading to shorter cooldowns on your abilities, particularly the shield, leading to more effective health and more autoattacks, leading to more abilities. If you get the loop working, he is able to outfight almost any other champion in the game (the best way to get this loop working is to let them burn a little burst on you before you shield, and to have resistances and attack speed). The amount of effective damage and tankiness he gets from the passive is very high. Chasing enemies down once they realize this and try to run it can be hard if they are some of the more mobile champions (as you note), but this can be dealt with by the proposed increases to his shield movement speed (he'll always have some problem catching assassins).

"I honestly don't think this change would instantly make him OP."

Oh, it would. It would make him broken instantly, and something else on his kit would have to go.

You've only talked about this in the context of him flash -> E -> ult initiating into a fight, but that's not what would make this change broken. That's just the icing on the cake. What you have to think about is what this gives the champion during the rest of his time on the map. Giving Skarner a blink makes him one of the most mobile champions in the game. Here's a list of things that you give to Skarner by giving him a blink.

1. You make his pre-6 ganks much stronger by allowing him to close in on his targets. Skarner's problem has always been closing the gap to his enemies. His pre-6 ganks are weak because he can't get to enemy champions in time to do anything to them before they escape. The blink fixes that problem by closing the gap for him. 2. You make his post-6 ganks much stronger for the same reason. He can just blink onto people and drag them away before they escape. 3. You make him much harder to kill. A Skarner who has to run away is much easier to catch than a Skarner who can blink over walls to get away. 4. You open up a ton of potential for him to just blink over walls and ambush people. 5. Seriously, think of all the ways you can use a blink, particularly in combination with his ult and permaslow.

Long story short: Skarner is balanced around not always being able to be in melee range of his opponents. He is balanced on the assumption that he will be facing more mobile opponents and that he will have to deal with kiting. Getting a blink invalidates that entirely. Give him a blink, and you have to reduce Skarner's power to compensate.

How will his power be reduced? Well, immobile ranged enemies currently deal with Skarner by either hitting him with CC and/or running away when they see him. If he can just blink into permaslow whenever he wants, they don't really have an option for escape. So, his CC being nerfed to give large windows of escape is a significant possibility. Then, there's the problem that Skarner would have both a mvoement speed steroid and a blink, making him one of the most mobile champions in the game. That doesn't really fit well with him being one of the strongest duelists either (even though you don't necessarily agree with it, I am taking it as a proposition of this argument that Skarner is one of the champions most capable of winning a melee 1v1 in the game). So, either his damage/tankiness will have to be reduced to ensure that such a mobile champion isn't an insane fighter, or he'll have to accepts nerfs to or the removal of his movement speed steroid to reduce his overall mobility.

Agreed on all counts. Current Skarner players shouldn't be punished simply because people who haven't used him won't if he doesn't have an insta-gapcloser. And, to be honest, a mini-flash on all initiating champs shouldn't be the answer.

I think one of the most frustrating current aspects of playing Skarner is the "initiator role" he has makes people assume you have to be the full tank for the team... But Skarner is not as his best when he's a full tank/support role, because then he's only good for his ult. I think that, however he turns out after these tweeks, his kit should give people watching him the idea that he is a *bruiser* who has a powerful, lockdown ult complimented with a fair amount of damage, tankiness, and mobility. I like that he really only has melee, because once you're in his range his presence becomes that much more dangerous- he can lock you down and dish out a lot of damage while tanking just as much of yours. He's a giant scorpion; he should be scary when that tail is right in your face, AND when he uses his claws to cut you to ribbons.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Hydroctopus

Senior Member

08-03-2013

I hope we get a lobster skin too. There are 2 skins in the make after all. (One of which is almost positively BattleCast Skarner.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sightless66 View Post
Here's a list of things that you give to Skarner by giving him a blink.

1. You make his pre-6 ganks much stronger by allowing him to close in on his targets. Skarner's problem has always been closing the gap to his enemies. His pre-6 ganks are weak because he can't get to enemy champions in time to do anything to them before they escape. The blink fixes that problem by closing the gap for him. 2. You make his post-6 ganks much stronger for the same reason. He can just blink onto people and drag them away before they escape. 3. You make him much harder to kill. A Skarner who has to run away is much easier to catch than a Skarner who can blink over walls to get away. 4. You open up a ton of potential for him to just blink over walls and ambush people. 5. Seriously, think of all the ways you can use a blink, particularly in combination with his ult and permaslow.
Again, I appreciate your time in writing down your opinions. Just consider a couple of things:
1) I don't think Skarner's E can pass through walls. At least I've never seen it happen. Maybe it's because of the limited range. If E can't pass through walls then there it no reason to think that an E-based gap closer would do so.
- I agree that passing through walls would be too much.
2) If the range was nerfed to 400 (to encourage close-range melee combat) it wouldn't be much of a gap closer, but I see your point.
3) I'm pretty sure that Skarner's kit was designed back when every new champion didn't have a gap-closer or ranged slow.
4) If a gap-closer isn't on the table, then I think he needs a way to avoid getting permaslowed from range.

But let me change this discussion to a question: What do you do when you are playing Skarner and the enemy team hits you constantly with slows? Let's assume there is no other tank or initiator on your team. You've got standard ADC + support bot, AP mid and somebody like Zed or Yi top and you are at the teamfight stage of the game. Suppose the enemy team has Ashe, Kha'zix, Leona, Karthus and any top you like. Do you just wait for somebody else to initiate then grab a juicy target? Do you build full slow resistance? (Swiftness + Zephyr) Do you wait for Flash/Ghost and try anyway? Do you wait for the enemy team to initiate then try to make a play during the ensuing chaos?

I'm curious because there are a lot of people who stopped playing Skarner since S3 started, and I really don't think the reason they stopped playing him has anything to do with attack speed steroid, permaslow or any of the other things that Riot's rework are targeting.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sightless66

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
Again, I appreciate your time in writing down your opinions. Just consider a couple of things:
1) I don't think Skarner's E can pass through walls. At least I've never seen it happen. Maybe it's because of the limited range. If E can't pass through walls then there it no reason to think that an E-based gap closer would do so.
- I agree that passing through walls would be too much.
2) If the range was nerfed to 400 (to encourage close-range melee combat) it wouldn't be much of a gap closer, but I see your point.
3) I'm pretty sure that Skarner's kit was designed back when every new champion didn't have a gap-closer or ranged slow.
4) If a gap-closer isn't on the table, then I think he needs a way to avoid getting permaslowed from range.

But let me change this discussion to a question: What do you do when you are playing Skarner and the enemy team hits you constantly with slows? Let's assume there is no other tank or initiator on your team. You've got standard ADC + support bot, AP mid and somebody like Zed or Yi top and you are at the teamfight stage of the game. Suppose the enemy team has Ashe, Kha'zix, Leona, Karthus and any top you like. Do you just wait for somebody else to initiate then grab a juicy target? Do you build full slow resistance? (Swiftness + Zephyr) Do you wait for Flash/Ghost and try anyway? Do you wait for the enemy team to initiate then try to make a play during the ensuing chaos?

I'm curious because there are a lot of people who stopped playing Skarner since S3 started, and I really don't think the reason they stopped playing him has anything to do with attack speed steroid, permaslow or any of the other things that Riot's rework are targeting.
People stopped playing Skarner because he became far weaker in season 3. This weakness was due to the large amount of indirect nerfs Skarner received. The first problem was item changes, particularly to resistances vs health. Skarner is one of the most resistances-dependent champions in the game. He has a shield and a self-heal to increase his effective health, making resistances more efficient, and he has a steroid tied to whether his shield stays up or not, (he needs that steroid desperately because it ties into his passive), and only resistances help that. In season 3, resistances were universally nerfed, and health was universally buffed. This indirectly nerfed Skarner, while it either didn't affect his competition (some like Jarvan don't really care if they build resistances or health), or it buffed them (Sejuani and Maokai and Naut absolutely love health). Then, the jungle was changed from aoe-focused to single-target, which nerfed Skarner's clear speed relative to other junglers (he went from one of the faster to merely above average) and exacerbated his mana costs (more Q's needed to kill the big monster). Junglers like Xin or Jarvan or Vi or Voli; they like it better this way. They were buffed by single-target. There were also nerfs or removals to specific items (Wit's End, Shurelia's, Force of Nature, etc) that Skarner loved to build.

So, people didn't stop playing Skarner because they disliked his mechanics; they stopped playing him because he was nerfed enough to become a definitively weaker pick than his competition. You could always say "well, I could have picked someone who would have better for this team than Skarner", because he just lost a lot of raw power. He needs some buffs to accommodate for the power that the season 3 changes took away from him (on that subject, it's been way, way too long coming, but that's an entirely different rant).

In league, the way blinks work is that if it goes halfway through the wall, it takes you all the way through the wall. Dashes don't have quite as much leniency, but they can still go through walls easily enough. Remember that Graves' dash has only 425 range, and he can still clear a large number of walls with ease. The only way to make it unable to clear walls is to give it a range of roughly 300 or shorter, and that's still only a fix for the medium-large walls.

"3) I'm pretty sure that Skarner's kit was designed back when every new champion didn't have a gap-closer or ranged slow.
4) If a gap-closer isn't on the table, then I think he needs a way to avoid getting permaslowed from range."

#3 is somewhat true. There weren't quite as many gap-closers back at the end of season 1, but ranged CC was still as common as it is nowadays.

Skarner does need some method of dealing with ranged slows. The best ways of dealing with this are A. increasing the movement speed on his shield so he has more catch-out potential and B. increasing the shield strength so it isn't broken so easily by errant skillshots.

Also, Skarner was never a great initiator, even in Season 2. He could flash/ult, but that was it, and that was to catch someone out of position or to catch an enemy if he ambushed them. He was not and will not be a hard initiator like Jarvan or Sejuani. It's just not something his kit allows for. Think of his role more like a Renekton or Udyr than an initiation tank.

"Let's assume there is no other tank or initiator on your team. You've got standard ADC + support bot, AP mid and somebody like Zed or Yi top and you are at the teamfight stage of the game. Suppose the enemy team has Ashe, Kha'zix, Leona, Karthus and any top you like. Do you just wait for somebody else to initiate then grab a juicy target? Do you build full slow resistance? (Swiftness + Zephyr) Do you wait for Flash/Ghost and try anyway? Do you wait for the enemy team to initiate then try to make a play during the ensuing chaos?"

In the situation you described, you have a few options. First, you can wait for the AP or Support to catch someone out if they have the CC to do so. Secondly, you can flash grab someone if they are out of position. Third (and this one is probably the best idea), you can split up the team and go to different objectives so they are forced to fight you in smaller units where you can use your high skirmish potential to its fullest while minimizing their aoe potential. Finally, if you absoultely must fight as a team and your team has no good initiation cc, you are going to be relegated to trying to absorb their initiation and then get onto someone important (peel or go for carries, situation demanding). (Also, if that's the case, then you guys really just have a poor team composition, and Skarner was not a wise pick. You're slightly picked into a corner. He's not hard initiation, and the enemy team has some direct Skarner counters (Karthus in particular, and Leona isn't fun either). Picking a hard initiator or stronger CC would have been a better idea.)


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

oldRakdos

Senior Member

08-03-2013

so anything new?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

shadowsaotome

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorPain9 View Post
So far it looks like there are three groups of players posting:

Skarner mains that dont want heal removed.

Skarner mains that dont want perma slow removed.

Everyone else that doesn't play skarner and thinks these are buffs.
I would add that there is a clash between those who want the heal and those who don't. While I understand the argument for both, which is basically skarner lane vs skarner jungle, Im not sure that it's really being addressed. I like the direction that his E is going, but there definitely needs to be some discussion about whether or not a heal of some kind is going to be included somewhere. It seems that Skarner Jungle doesnt benefit from the current heal at all, while Skarner Lane depends upon it. There's got to be a compromise here somewhere.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MajorPain9

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadowsaotome View Post
I would add that there is a clash between those who want the heal and those who don't. While I understand the argument for both, which is basically skarner lane vs skarner jungle, Im not sure that it's really being addressed. I like the direction that his E is going, but there definitely needs to be some discussion about whether or not a heal of some kind is going to be included somewhere. It seems that Skarner Jungle doesnt benefit from the current heal at all, while Skarner Lane depends upon it. There's got to be a compromise here somewhere.
I agree there is a clash, but honestly there doesn't need to be. Skarners kit WORKS. We all know it from the previous season. He doesn't need a rework of his entire kit. A large majority of us love his perma slow and heal.

Scruff, you taking the time to work on him is a huge honor so please don't think i'm insulting you, but it seems like your point of view is that his perma slow has to go if we want any type of changes/fixes. This aspect of his identity defines him as a champion as much as Ashe's Frost shot defines her.

Please just try tweaking him to revert what season 3 nerfed before you rework him entirely.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zakamaru

Senior Member

08-03-2013

Just to be clear, since I'm not about to run through every page.

Is his Q permaslow (when charged) being removed, or is it still intact? For me, that was one of the most satisfying parts of playing Skarner, once he's on you, you are not getting away.