Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAAAAAAGHHH View Post
Hey Scruffy, I just want to comment about Skarner's Ult. It is awesome, in that it holds a lot of the appeal for Skarner and is a big part of his identity. It is also a lot of fun in teamfights.

The only issue is, there is really no counter except blowing CC on Skarn when he rushes forward.

"Skarner got Dave! what do we do?"

"...there's nothing we can do... except tell his family he fought with honor."

It really just becomes a couple seconds of waiting for the ult to end while the other team jumps all over the guy that got trapped.


I think a good change could be something along the lines of:
--slow Skarner down while he is ulting someone, but make it last longer. more of a slow drag of a helpless victim. this will make him feel less like a "tow truck" as someone said earlier, and more like a predator that caught prey
--Make the damage a DOT that increases in strength over the duration of the ult. This way it can be stronger and make for a more useful ability for 1v1s, but isn't just unilaterally stronger because it will deal less damage if broken early, speaking of which...
--Give the portion of the ult that surrounds the enemy an HP. This way teammates can help someone that Skarner captures by jumping on the casing to break their ally free. The tricky part here would be finding the right level of durability for the casing. too strong and there isnt a point trying to save someone. too weak, and skarner's ult feels weak and useless in teamfights.


These are just some random thoughts, and they probably would need a hefty amount of polishing (no pun intended), but I would like to hear your thoughts about this. Thanks!
This is a terrible idea. Skarner's ult is extremely short range and very hard to pull off well. Skarner's whole kit makes several sacrifices in order for him to have this power. Plus he is EXTREMELY easy to counter with any form of CC whatsoever. Not to mention that if you kill the scorpion, the supression immediately ends.

If you accept the premise that Skarner's ult has no counterplay, then you must also believe that there is no counterplay to
1) Malzahar's ult
2) Warwick's ult
3) Malphite's ult
... and probably others. These are all supressions (or knockups) that are immune to tenacity and last more than 1 second. The only difference is that Skarner can drag somebody.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Allidon

Junior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Quick update, the new slow on E decreasing over time didn't feel great with skarner's playstyle of keeping up with the target over the long term rather than up front burst damage. Testing a new version where the slow is a constant 40/45/50/55/60 (by level) for 3s. This should be good.

Also, I am going to do some top lane tests and report back with how that goes.
I have a problem with this style of slow skarner had a perma small range slow... now he has an on hit damage ability that slow the target when skarner does more damage to them... the problem is now to have to not only be in melee range to use the ability but also hit the targets with more damage to slow them seeing as he only has 1 effective ranged ability and its used to start the slow you have reduced his slows range its duration and made it harder to slow multiple targets...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

WAAAAAAGHHH

Senior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
This is a terrible idea. Skarner's ult is extremely short range and very hard to pull off well. Skarner's whole kit makes several sacrifices in order for him to have this power. Plus he is EXTREMELY easy to counter with any form of CC whatsoever. Not to mention that if you kill the scorpion, the supression immediately ends.

If you accept the premise that Skarner's ult has no counterplay, then you must also believe that there is no counterplay to
1) Malzahar's ult
2) Warwick's ult
3) Malphite's ult
I don't really think Malph's ult belongs in that list. It is quite different mechanically. Also of course there is counterplay, If there wasn't it would be broken. That isn't what I am saying at all. I am only saying it would be much more interesting ingame if the grab could be physically shattered and the person saved.

And as far as "killing the scorpion", you're suggesting to focus down the tanky initiator... that is a terrible idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
The only difference is that Skarner can drag somebody.
That is a pretty key difference, as it forcibly puts a player out of position in a teamfight, and being out of position is one of the main ways a person gets themselves killed during a fight. not to mention that both malzahar and ww have suppresions that also immobilize them as the user, whereas Skarner can retreat to safety while suppresing an opponent


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Tananzel

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by WAAAAAAGHHH View Post
That is a pretty key difference, as it forcibly puts a player out of position in a teamfight, and being out of position is one of the main ways a person gets themselves killed during a fight. not to mention that both malzahar and ww have suppresions that also immobilize them as the user, whereas Skarner can retreat to safety while suppresing an opponent
The thing you need to remember is that if the enemy team is playing properly then getting that key ADC or Burst Mage pull is hard to pull off. Skarner capitalizes by finding an already out of place carry and punishing them heavily for there mistake. If the enemy tank/bruiser is defending and the carries are playing safe then Skarner has to put himself in danger to get a good pull.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

BlueAndy

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

08-02-2013

I don't miss him too much


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

metafoxx

Senior Member

08-02-2013

Skarner is a character that I've always had interest in and enjoyed playing. While I still feel that his lane-phase usefulness is still good (not top tier anymore, but still good), and I still try to play him in S3 and regularly do well in the first 15-20 minutes of the game, his biggest problems really come from after lane phase and his lack of usefulness in team fights as a jungler, and I often see my early lead become useless and still end up losing because I can't make the impact I need on important teamfights. Why is this? Well....

- Skarner's range is extremely short, and he lacks any "real" gap-closing abilities of his own. His signature play is to flashgrab an enemy squishy, but much like alistar, his lack of an effective gap closer makes him FAR too reliable on flash to make those important plays, especially with the longer cd and shorter range that flash has now. While popping out of the jungle and ganking someone is great, his ability to actually engage the enemy team or initiate a teamfight is extremely weak as any attempt to do so is very, very telegraphed to the enemy team. Also, like alistar, the simple fact of not having flash up is a HUGE drop in your threat level to the enemy team, and if you blow your flash just to see the enemy hop out of your ult range a the last 0.0001 second and escape your ult, then your ult somehow goes on cooldown, you look and feel like a complete tool.

- As good as his ult is, it has very little range, and even when you DO get to flashgrab an enemy to initiate a teamfight, you will likely only be able to grab a frontline character, likely the enemy tank, and drag them into your team. This means your team has 1.75 seconds to kill a tank, or you just pulled their prime initiator into the middle of your team. If you try to grab a mid or backline enemy, you'll have a much harder time getting to them or getting back to your team OR doing anything really useful in the meantime, since your Q has the delay to start slowing, the most you can do is simply walk around, and you are VERY easily kited in mid/late game. Granted, it is not necessarily a bad thing that skarner is not a prime initiator, he doesn't have to be. There's nothing wrong with hanging back, letting Malphite initiate while you guard squishies or flashulting in to put the frosting on someone else's inititation cake, but his non-flash tools to get in and get that job done are simply lacking, and the delay on his Q slow, while not a big deal in lane ganking, tends to waste precious seconds in a teamfight.

- As a tanky buiser and duelist, Skarner is highly underrated. His ability to latch onto a target and STAY on that target are excellent, and he has amazing dps and sustain if you build him well. He directly or indirectly scales of virtually every stat in the game and is one of THE most flexible characters to build in the game. This has always been a good thing about him and should stay well intact after the rework. (does not seem to be a problem currently)

So, what does Skarner need?

1. Lower mana costs. He is the only character that still goes oom regularly with blue buff on. That's just ridiculous. (check)
2. An improved gap-closer. (check)
3. Improved Ult reliability. (check) WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE A RANGE INCREASE.
4. Non-ult instant cc that is still spammable. While the new suggestion for his E isn't bad, it undeniably weakens his ability to stick to a target and lowers his range to even less than it already was. Even so, I wouldn't be opposed to taking it in this direction, but to keep one of his biggest strengths intact, the cooldown of his E should be at least slightly lowered. After all, constant slows are great, but they do very little when they're melee range and your target has any blink/dash ability.

Suggestion: What if skarner's ult automatically empowered his Q? This is more or less assuming his Q still worked the way is does now rather than the AS buff that's being suggested, but how useful would it be to flash/run into a group of enemies, impale the one your want, and instantly have an empowered Q to drop onto them?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by metafoxx View Post
- Skarner's range is extremely short, and he lacks any "real" gap-closing ... his lack of an effective gap closer makes him FAR too reliable on flash to make those important plays, especially with the longer cd and shorter range that flash has now. ...
Metafoxx makes some very good points regarding the real problems with Skarner, e.g. he lacks the ability to initiate well when flash is on cooldown.

I think this is why so many people and switched to playing him AP in lane. He can still be tanky, hits way harder, has amazing sustain and participate in teamfights after somebody else initiates. As soon as people see Skarner with smite, they assume he is going to be the tanky initiator for the team. If you don't build him that way then people say you are terrible, if you DO build him that way, then the enemy team know exactly how to shut you down (steal blue if possible, then ranged slows any time he is visible) gg for the poor Scorpion.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the best way to fix Skarner is to give him a small gap closer. Make his E work like Lissandra's "Glacial Path" (2nd activation teleports skarner to the end of the fracture line) That is probably all that is needed. It would be an exciting new change and everybody would pick him up again and start playing him again.

I'd seriously like to see Riot implement that change (without nerfing all the rest of his abilities), then see how his numbers change and how the community responds. Then, if need be, balance all the rest of his abilities around this new Skarner that has a gap closer.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dizeazedkiller

Junior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
This is the first change being thought about that i don't completely hate. Here's hoping that i can eventually say the same for the rest of his new kit, but so far it's not looking good.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Dizeazedkiller

Junior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
Metafoxx makes some very good points regarding the real problems with Skarner, e.g. he lacks the ability to initiate well when flash is on cooldown.

-snip-
Not true. I don't even take flash anymore and its very easy to make good initiates. The problem is you need the right team comp to be able to force a skarner initiate. I personally enjoy running him in a poke comp so that it's more likely for the enemy team to spread out of position so i can click all my speed buttons (w, shurelies, ghost sometimes) and rush in to ult a value target.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Sightless66

Senior Member

08-02-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
The more I think about it, the more I think that the best way to fix Skarner is to give him a small gap closer. Make his E work like Lissandra's "Glacial Path" (2nd activation teleports skarner to the end of the fracture line) That is probably all that is needed. It would be an exciting new change and everybody would pick him up again and start playing him again.
I'd stop playing him. I don't really want this champion to have a hard gapcloser. What I want is to play someone who has to run up to his enemies, but is highly rewarded for doing so. I want to be one of the best duelists in the game. That's interesting. That's what I want when I play the scorpion. I don't want to be someone who blinks into the enemy team for intiation. That's not desirable.

Think about this from a balance point of view. If Skarner is given that change you suggested, he will instantly go from underpowered to overpowered. You've just added 600 range (or at least, very significant range, assuming the fracture range is nerfed to compensate for this) to his potential flash/grab combo, you've given one of the best duelists in the game a way to cross walls, and you've vastly increased his general mobility. This will necessitate Skarner nerfs, and those nerfs will be to his tankiness, damage, or cc. He'll have to be a significantly weaker duelist and fighter in order to justify this mobility and potential initiation power. So, if we have a champion who gapcloses with a blink but isn't an overwhelming force in melee combat, what do we call them? (Answer: Not-Skarner). At that point, he ceases to have the same playstyle we enjoy about Skarner, and begins to play like an entirely different champion. Not. What. We. Want.

We like Skarner. We like Skarner's current playstyle. Keep the playstyle he has, and just find ways to make him stronger with his current playstyle (such as increasing the speed buff). Don't try to invent a new one.