Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Acastius

Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Some additional details about the current changes:

W
-Cooldown is lowered back to 14s from 18s
-Speed amount is increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Shield values are buffed up to compensate for the loss of heal
-Speed ramps up for the first 3s and then stays maxed for 3s

E
-Cooldown is still 10s (with auto attacks its effectively ~5s)
-Slow starts 80% for 3s that decays

With the current changes, he definitely feels more powerful as a pre 6 ganker. He also is much more reliable getting into fights in the late game.

Removing the heal from E allowed us to do a few really great things for skarner. One, it allowed us to lower the E mana cost significantly because it would be problematic if he was able to sustain without large mana costs. Also, it allowed us to buff up the W shield, which keeps him moving faster for longer. If he ends up being completely unviable top lane, we can always put the heal back on E.
These kit changes are so incredibly exciting! I'm picturing his E as his claws swinging forward like giant scythes, crystals forming around them, shattering on impact and impaling everyone behind with shrapnel.

Very cool.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DemonicTrashcan

Senior Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
That is awesome to hear- I was a big skarner player back in the day and am huge on "monster" champions. His ult is definitely a lot less satisfying after the "range/gap-closing" nerf, I find it hilarious how often Skarner yells "you'll never escape!" right as someone flashes away and they escape...

A subject I'm interested to hear your feedback and any potential plans for: how do you/the rest of live design feel about Skarner's identity/lore? I read some red posts long ago that noted on how a lot of work was put into trying to make Skarner a defined, identified character. A lot of people noted how "human" Skarner's facial structure was on his release. Unfortunately, this design flaw that was attempted to be avoided ended up going through just by the inherent idea behind the character, Skarner IS just "another brackern"

In the same vein of thought, I read elsewhere about Omen- he was scrapped for similar reasons, lack of identification and personality make for a character to lacks depth and simply isn't popular/cool to "main." Personality and presence are definitely key factors to a good successful champion.

Any thoughts on this, and do you have any plans on changing Skarner's backstory? He doesn't necessary need to be tied to the Crystal Scar, and he also lacks interaction with other champions, which could definitely be inserted into his lore. You could also have Skarner be a Golem of sorts that was given life via crystal power. Skarner seeks a crystal strong enough to give another entity life, essentially to make a companion- through this venture Skarner sought the league and also befriended a variety of champions, (blitz for golem bros, Viktor and Heim for study, Malph and Maokai for pseudo-inanimate bros.) I'm under the assumption that Riot isn't comfortable with creatures that cannot talk.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bikohoness

Senior Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
W
-Increase the movespeed buff so that it is closer to other similar champs like Udyr and Volibear
-Possibly make the movespeed ramp up over time so its not too powerful of an escape "get out of jail free" ability
-Lower cooldown back to 14s from 18s like it was a few patches ago
I really don't understand this "get out of jail free" ability. Take a look at some of the recent champions' "get out of jail free" abilities:
Aatrox - Dark Flight - 650 range blink, 12s cooldown.
Lissandra - Glacial path - 1050 range blink, 12s cooldown
Zac - Elastic slighshot - 800 (if escaping) blink, can jump over walls, 12s cooldown
Quinn - Vault - 525 shift, 8s cooldown
Thresh - No blink-based escape move
Vi - Vault Breaker - 250-750 blink, 8s cooldown
Nami - No blink-based escape move
Zed - Living shadow - 550 range blink, 14s cooldown
Elise - Rappel - up to 1075 targeted escape
Kha'zix - Leap - 600/900 range blink, 14s cooldown

Now lets look at
Skarner - Crystaline Exoskelton - 23% movespeed increase (as long as 250 shield is intact), 18s cooldown

...
How exactly is that a "get out of jail free" ability compared to all of those others? Skarner's ability is still susceptible to slows, stuns and knockups while the "escape" is happening. Not to mention any burst of damage with eliminate the shield. I know that you mentioned it getting a buff, so let's just assume it looks like this:

Skarner - Crystaline Exoskelton - 35% movespeed increase (as long as 400 shield is intact), 14s cooldown
That still doesn't even remotely compare to an 800 range shift on a 12 second cooldown, at least as far as escapes go.

TL;DR: Every recent champion has a better "get out of jail free" ability than Skarner's W, there is no reason to make the movespeed ramp up instead of applying it instantly.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Emi Tesuka

Junior Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
This. Is. So. Good.

Honestly, if you prevent people flashing away from you once they are in your ult range, that is MORE THAN ENOUGH to bring Skarner back. I believe you could do this one change and bam, he's viable again. His ult unreliability and inability to initiate with flash+ult after the nerfs is what killed him.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Bambouské

Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
soooo if noc is rooted he knows it's time to pop the shield and dodge it ?

And what about these "through cc" dash such as jarvan still dashing while being rooted by Lux or Ez arcane shift that can work whatever the situation as long as the spell was casted before cc HIT him ?

You come closer, he arcane shifts away but you have time to cast your ult during his cast time so he is now rooted but five steps afar thus can't be grabed and traded a 6scnd cd spell for a 50scnd cd ultimate.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

DarkflameShyvana

Senior Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikohoness View Post
I really don't understand this "get out of jail free" ability. Take a look at some of the recent champions' "get out of jail free" abilities:
Aatrox - Dark Flight - 650 range blink, 12s cooldown.
Lissandra - Glacial path - 1050 range blink, 12s cooldown
Zac - Elastic slighshot - 800 (if escaping) blink, can jump over walls, 12s cooldown
Quinn - Vault - 525 shift, 8s cooldown
Thresh - No blink-based escape move
Vi - Vault Breaker - 250-750 blink, 8s cooldown
Nami - No blink-based escape move
Zed - Living shadow - 550 range blink, 14s cooldown
Elise - Rappel - up to 1075 targeted escape
Kha'zix - Leap - 600/900 range blink, 14s cooldown

Now lets look at
Skarner - Crystaline Exoskelton - 23% movespeed increase (as long as 250 shield is intact), 18s cooldown

...
How exactly is that a "get out of jail free" ability compared to all of those others? Skarner's ability is still susceptible to slows, stuns and knockups while the "escape" is happening. Not to mention any burst of damage with eliminate the shield. I know that you mentioned it getting a buff, so let's just assume it looks like this:

Skarner - Crystaline Exoskelton - 35% movespeed increase (as long as 400 shield is intact), 14s cooldown
That still doesn't even remotely compare to an 800 range shift on a 12 second cooldown, at least as far as escapes go.

TL;DR: Every recent champion has a better "get out of jail free" ability than Skarner's W, there is no reason to make the movespeed ramp up instead of applying it instantly.
I don't think you know what blink means.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vejitables

Senior Member

08-01-2013

What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Being able to stick on a target and never let up. Ulting A high value target and dragging them into your team. PERMASLOWS are fun to me. His incredible tankiness if you can get his build going. (being unkillable is fun to me) His really good dueling is also cool, you ain't getting invaded as skarner.

What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
To me the most annoying thing is how easy you are to kite. Having your ult not work. the fact when i jungle skarner i dont even put any points into E. at all. until i have to. just having that "useless" spell is pretty lame and makes you feel like a worse version of other champions

OH and the MOST frustrating thing about him is that he LOSES all his bonuses from his W when the shield dies.

What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
Getting caught by him in melee, once it happens its basically unstoppable. you're permanently slowed and if your team isn't near you you're probably going to die. the fact theres little counter play to that is frustrating. You cant invade him unles you do a "hit and run" tactic. you cant actually fight him and he can be "deceptively" tanky, even at low health.

Are there champions that do Skarners job better than he does? Why?

Udyr is a prime example of someone who does everything skarner does but better, he doesnt have as bad of mana issues, he might have a suppression ult but he can stun an entire team one by one. his healing ability is actually worth getting, and his damage is higher (i think). Then you have all the ganking junglers who can CC people from a distance and dont just have to run up, such as jarvan, zac, even xin.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

MajorPain9

Senior Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesLlamas View Post
One of the biggest problems I'm seeing in this is that you're doing too much. I don't think Skarner has ever really been considered a toxic champion or very unhealthy for the game. He's not like Karma in that the game mechanics didn't make much sense. If you simply wanted to make him viable again, then you'd just revert the shield nerfs and give him mana buffs. That would make him a strong pick.


But you also want to make Fracture into a better skill, which I TOTALLY get. The overwhelming (over a long period of time) sentiment is that we'd like a different skill, but that we don't want to sacrifice the Q, W, or R to get that. He's already a great champion--he's just in a poor balance spot that could be numerically fixed if you wanted to.



More than anything, I want this message to convey to you that pride should not get into your thinking with these changes. Don't be afraid to scrap something you suggest if the community generally dislikes it (i.e. removing the Q slow and making it essentially a Hecarim copy skill). Err on the side of caution. If anything, just make a change to his E, but don't make it a powerful skill by any means. Just make it a complementary one to the rest of his kit (like an AA reset that applies a poison, or something relatively minor and numerically weak). Skarner isn't supposed to be built around his E, and it would be a huge mistake to make it that way.


TL;DR Skarner is built around his Q and his R. Do not make significant changes to those (QoL stuff and little adjustments are fine, obviously). He should not be changed so much that his play pattern revolves around the use of his E.
This poster needs a free kitten calender. Could not of said it better.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Spyfellow

Junior Member

08-01-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordsOfAether View Post
Something i would like to see would be like a mini gap closer thing to replace his current E. He could burrow into the ground and pop out a a current location, dealing magic damage to near by enemies in an area. This could make up for changing his perma-slow and slove the problem of changing his E.
Another idea, as stated by some others, could be to add a mini dash add to his ult in which he violently impales the target he charged at, it wouldn't have to be a major dash, just a short range one.
I also think that would be really cool, this could allow him to traverse under small terrain walls. Or possibly instead of having able to target a specific area of ground, make it so he has to target an opponent so he can't use it as an escape and lower the utility of it. Upon reaching the targeted area or opponent, Skarner could either pop them up or slow them, though that might be too much.

I'm also curious as to your thoughts removing most of his slows in-place of, granting additional movement speed with each AA or Q.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Feynt

Senior Member

08-01-2013

Where was this sort of thread when Karma's rework was happening? >.>