Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

itsbigfoot

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
does this actually work? the way i learned how league cc works, if they buffer it, they'll just flash away and be rooted at their destination.

I'm really hopeful for the rework, but if skarner flash ults you, it needs to go off. being able to reliably get the pull was why he was played before, and everyone being able to just jump out of it/trade flash cooldowns is why he's unplayable at the moment. seriously, try ulting an ezreal/nidalee/riven, it isn't possible unless they mess up horribly. There was a reason flash stopped canceling spell casts in 2010.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Muramas

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
Might I suggest putting some tenacity/reduce effectiveness of slows passively on his ult when it is up (is able to be used)? This could help him not be kited as bad


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

LesLlamas

Senior Member

07-31-2013

One of the biggest problems I'm seeing in this is that you're doing too much. I don't think Skarner has ever really been considered a toxic champion or very unhealthy for the game. He's not like Karma in that the game mechanics didn't make much sense. If you simply wanted to make him viable again, then you'd just revert the shield nerfs and give him mana buffs. That would make him a strong pick.


But you also want to make Fracture into a better skill, which I TOTALLY get. The overwhelming (over a long period of time) sentiment is that we'd like a different skill, but that we don't want to sacrifice the Q, W, or R to get that. He's already a great champion--he's just in a poor balance spot that could be numerically fixed if you wanted to.



More than anything, I want this message to convey to you that pride should not get into your thinking with these changes. Don't be afraid to scrap something you suggest if the community generally dislikes it (i.e. removing the Q slow and making it essentially a Hecarim copy skill). Err on the side of caution. If anything, just make a change to his E, but don't make it a powerful skill by any means. Just make it a complementary one to the rest of his kit (like an AA reset that applies a poison, or something relatively minor and numerically weak). Skarner isn't supposed to be built around his E, and it would be a huge mistake to make it that way.


TL;DR Skarner is built around his Q and his R. Do not make significant changes to those (QoL stuff and little adjustments are fine, obviously). He should not be changed so much that his play pattern revolves around the use of his E.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Vejoviis

Member

07-31-2013

I would like to preface this by saying that Skarner is by far my favorite and most played champ. (I had a rant thread that can be found here http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/...0#post31771850 regarding the nerfs) It makes me immensely happy that Riot is looking to take the rubber bands off rock lobsters claws, so I'll get right into it.


What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
(pre-nerf)Without a doubt flash ulting a squishy, juicy target. It feels so rewarding, like being a cobra that does the dance and then strikes out violently. A target that does get flash ulted is almost certainly dead. Secondly just feeling like a brick wall is nice, especially early game, no one can really fight Skarner if he gets in melee range, which makes him, admittedly, kinda stupidly strong in skirmishes - he wins almost every 2v2 (especially with melees) with the combination of high base damage and the slow lock down. Late game if you stack resists and cdr no bruiser can kill you - I like Skarner's feeling of being a strong anti-bruiser.

What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
Not being able to flash ult people anymore and being kited. Honestly any champ with a blink can completely invalidate Skarner by being impossible to ult if they play smart, and there is little Skarner can do short of building 500ms and Shurelias. I liked being able to be kited when I could flash ult people, it made me feel like a predator stalking its prey. Build pathing is frustrating now, because you can either get mana screw, or go shurelias which in terms of pathing is horrible for stats now - so mainly mana costs force backs or weak pathing. Honestly his base stats are just a just ridiculous - if your image of him was a fairy instead of a mighty lobster he would never get away with those base stats.

What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
He snowballs really hard and becomes impossible to kill. If he gets a lot of gold and gets shurelias/cdr he gets his ult back really fast with his passive, has a ton of sustain and a mini ghost, and is just overall a ganking monster.

Are there champions that do Skarnerís job better than he does? Why?
Yes, because he can no longer do anything but flash trade on a squishy. Even Udyr can flash initiate better, is a better duelist, tanks and bruises through a fight better. For a while on my fives team the joke was "Skarner is just a bad Udyr now, which is terrible because Udyr is a bad Udy". In terms of an initiation/disruption jungler Udyr, Zac, Hecarim are all vastly better picks. Hecarim and Zac can't duel as well but more than make up for it with other strengths, like not being super easy to kite. I list a lot of gripes in the link above.

But seriously, the thing I care about most is being able to flash ult people and yell at my screen "WHERE YOU GOIN?!?!... NOWHERE!" a la boondock saints.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ETFEN

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Somebody actually paying atention to Skarner? Sounds like battlecast Skarner is finally coming...


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

GoldfishBowl

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
Now this sounds great. I never really played him top, so I can't comment on that situation. I hope the buffed shield works out for those folks.

One last thing though, about his R...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
Nevermind, that sounds perfectly fair.


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

beeeaan

Junior Member

07-31-2013

hey i know its off topic but there needs to be a majin buu zac more than any other skin....best idea ever i'd give my big toe for that skin


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

ETFEN

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOLBoredom View Post
A HUGE part of mid lane Skarner is the sustain he gets from his E. If its removed then so is Skarner mid which limits his playability to just jungle and maybe top. I really think this change will do more harm than good overall to his player base. Newer doesn't always mean better!

LOL. Why the hell would you play Skarner mid?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Locke64

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
I'll add some clarification for the changes to his ult. Right now I'm trying it so that when the ult starts (it has a cast time before the actual grab) it will root the target in place. This disables flash, dashes and other escape spells. If the target cast their escape spell before skarner's ult started, the spell will still go off. This makes it a situation where whoever pulls the trigger first gets the result that they expected. It feels way more reliable in playtesting so far.
Sounds pretty good, but it doesn't really make sense for the scorpion to be able to root the enemy before actually impaling them. I like the idea, but the implementation seems forced. Have you tried simply removing the cast time?


Comment below rating threshold, click here to show it.

Zykezero

Senior Member

07-31-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ETFEN View Post
LOL. Why the hell would you play Skarner mid?
Some people think that they have the games best interest at heart. "I want my incredibly weird character role! It's important for me in normals at bronze elo!"