Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IS15729ac22b02d27383e6e View Post
Skarner is in a bad spot right now because he gets in with too many "problems or effort". He's easily kited without his speed boost. BotRK and Iceborn Gauntlet make this issue even worse, not to mention the amount of escapes Skarner has to deal with.
This won't make be able to "always get in with 0 problems or effort." Remember all those Udyr changes, especially the tweaks to Bear Stance and the +5 flat movespeed per stack of his passive? That helped Udyr a lot without changing who he is or making him OP, and this potential change would do the same for Skarner.
If you have someone like Thresh, Leona, Nautilus, Vi, Zac, or Sejuani initiate, Skarner has no problems being Skarner. If your ADC gets leapt on, he has no issues peeling. If Skarner catches a target out of position, he can snag them.

He doesn't need to be able to herp derp hulk mode into a fight to drag someone back to his team. That isn't a big decision point and good play. That's just doing what your kit gives you, like what Vi does with Q + R.

BotRK is a ****ing awful bull**** item in all honesty and I hate the thing. It is another Flash. It's comical how often I see Flash into BotRK into BotRK into Flash, between the two targets. That's not a good play exchange. That isn't a reason to tweak and make Skarner a ton better, that's a reason to fix the item.

That sort of stuff is why Vi, and Zac, and the new champions have a **** ton of gap closers and slows...because without them they can't function. Mobility creep in action.

I can get into range as is, with no effort now, because I go in at the right time and work with my team, or position well.

These potential changes absolutely ruin the champion.

And as a side note Udyr IS OP, same as late game AD Sion or Full-Inventory Poppy. They're kept in check by other things, but because Udyr has to go through so much to do his job, he's "balanced" within the metagame. But with things like BotRK ****ing with the system, Udyr can always perform at his peak, except against other mobility creeped things, etc.

Giving everyone stupidly easy ways to get into fights doesn't fix that issue, it exasperates.


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GOOD GUY GARRY

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

As the best Skarner player Season 2 according to Elobuff.com (and maybe S3), I'd like to give my 2 cents on any potential changes.

I haven't taken the time to read anyone's posts here, sorry, so if people shared overlapping suggestions with mine already, thank you.

Only 2 changes are NECESSARY to move him up to par with the other junglers.

#1 - Make his shield scale with something other than AP and/or revert it back to a lower cooldown.

#2 - Skarner is the ONLY champion in the game where if you use your flash to get in range of an opponent and press your ultimate key (R) BEFORE the opponent presses his flash, the opponent can still flash out in time. Not only that but if you press R and they flash in the .5 - 1 second time they have to get out of your ultimate, you will also be slowed down by the ultimate casting animation. My suggestion on this is to INSTANTLY silence the captured opponent and let the casting animation time persist.

Other changes could be useful but these are what are most important in my opinion.

I hope you take what I have shared under consideration.

Sincerely,

Good Guy Garry


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Great Owl

Senior Member

07-30-2013

New E sounds ok, but sort of feels out of place, like it has nothing to do with a crystal scorpion.
I mean, Q is his claw move, W is his crystals/exoskeleton, R is his stinger. Why not give him some poison? You could make it crystallizing poison spray (if its going to be an aoe on-hit) and have it do damage over time or something fancy.


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hydrafall

Junior Member

07-30-2013

I wonder if increasing the little Jump he gets at the start of his W would help out, then he could use it to juke and also leap on people. I'm not saying having him go over small bits of terrain with it, but it would be awesome if he could.


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Kringe

Senior Member

07-30-2013

accidentally quoting the wrong guy. -.-


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Kringe

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Some additional details about the current changes:

W
-Cooldown is lowered back to 14s from 18s
-Speed amount is increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Shield values are buffed up to compensate for the loss of heal
-Speed ramps up for the first 3s and then stays maxed for 3s

E
-Cooldown is still 10s (with auto attacks its effectively ~5s)
-Slow starts 80% for 3s that decays

With the current changes, he definitely feels more powerful as a pre 6 ganker. He also is much more reliable getting into fights in the late game.

Removing the heal from E allowed us to do a few really great things for skarner. One, it allowed us to lower the E mana cost significantly because it would be problematic if he was able to sustain without large mana costs. Also, it allowed us to buff up the W shield, which keeps him moving faster for longer. If he ends up being completely unviable top lane, we can always put the heal back on E.
Just wanted to jump in here and add a possible suggestion for his shield.

Having a heal was a huge thing for Skarner no matter how you played him, it allowed you to stay in lane if you won enough trades to make the enemy back, giving you an advantage for winning that particular fight. So instead of a shield(in my opinion, the shield numbers could never really be ramped up enough to compensate entirely without overdoing it), why not make it like a self cast version of Galios shield? Gives resistances instead of a shield and heals you for taking hits with 50% diminishing returns, scaling with AP? This would allow Skarner to build more HP based items that benefit him immensely early game combined with his attack speed, cooldown reduction and slow already existent in his kit.

Another alternative to heal on being hit, a flat heal upon auto attack?


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Anuda

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Some additional details about the current changes:

W
-Cooldown is lowered back to 14s from 18s
-Speed amount is increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Shield values are buffed up to compensate for the loss of heal
-Speed ramps up for the first 3s and then stays maxed for 3s

E
-Cooldown is still 10s (with auto attacks its effectively ~5s)
-Slow starts 80% for 3s that decays

With the current changes, he definitely feels more powerful as a pre 6 ganker. He also is much more reliable getting into fights in the late game.

Removing the heal from E allowed us to do a few really great things for skarner. One, it allowed us to lower the E mana cost significantly because it would be problematic if he was able to sustain without large mana costs. Also, it allowed us to buff up the W shield, which keeps him moving faster for longer. If he ends up being completely unviable top lane, we can always put the heal back on E.
It's nice that he's getting some attention, but it seems you are only trying to tweak a bit on his skills than a make over. I always thought that there have been interesting skills on champions that are never modified to be more fun as well. Like Nocturne's "Duskbringer" which could have easily modified into being a slow effect.

On Skarner his main purpose is to pull our a target, but after doing so he has to rely on the endless slow to stop him/her from escaping which makes it difficult as he has to be constantly in the middle of chaos, and when he got nerfed he became an easy target. A counter cc would hold him in place and allow the opposing team to counter initiate easily. Then it came to my mind, what if Skarner could pull and when he drags the target it leaves a slowing field like "Frozen Gauntlet" but in the same pattern as Nocturne's "Duskbringer". This would stop the target from escaping easily and hinder the opposing enemy from counter initiating easily as well. The purpose is similar like Jarvan's ult, to immobilize the target and hinder the enemy from assisting. To counter nerf the status, a removal on his Q's perma slow and instead leave a slowing field on his W which would increase his speed while slowing the enemy. As for his E, i thought since he doesn't much benefit from the heal, and with the current item settings that don't benefit it much, he could it modified into a skill which allows him to sting the target and close the gap.

Well this is my thoughts on him. But hey your source of innovation seems to be running dry, the only interesting skill set that have been developed was Lucian's ult rather than that for the past month, there haven't been much to enjoy. Let's be honest the last champion to possess any interesting mechanic was Zac, and this is coming from a guy who loves playing new champion.... constantly :P


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ShadowLadon

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Skarner was my main jungler in S2, he was one of the first champions I actually really started doing well with.


Skarner has great sticking power without the normal low damage (due to his Q spam) most tanks tend to have, this enables him to kill carries very well. So in the damage department I would actually say he is fine. He can be built into a very solid and beefy tank which even though he doesn't deal great damage in a full tank build(I find one damage item can be good enough) he can still do enough to be a threat to an carry.

So where does his problem come in? It's actually both his ult and his E. His ult for relying on flash too much, and E for not having much practical use other than a heal off minion groups. Scorpions in real life burrow underground in order to avoid hot weather so why not put this into play in his Kit? A quote from his lore "When Skarner burst to the surface" Make his E a underground movement gap closer, when he comes out of the ground well you can decide what happens from there. You can get a knock up possibly or a damage on next auto.

Regardless this does 2 things it makes him not nearly as reliant on flash for his ult. It puts him on par with other junglers for being able to gank pre level 6. And it makes all of his abilities useful at all stages in the game. For the increased utility on his E maybe reduce the slow a little bit on his Q.


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FeatMyEces

Senior Member

07-30-2013

When I woke up this mornin I took a ****. Don't think I wiped ta damn well and didn't have time for a shower! Man, lemme tell ya.....all damn day my stinkhole was itchin me! Now I don't nermally mind an itchy stinkhole, but this was the kinda itch that was beggin me for direct contact.

None of that hands-off, through-ya-drawers type itch; no sir. This stinkhole was beggin me for the finger-itch! Now I don't nermally mind an itchy stinkhole, but this was different!!!!

Then....JJUUUUUSSSTTTT as the tip of my index finger reached the stinkhole and began to work its magic, I let out a cool sigh of relief, and a customer walks in and says "Good morning, Chef!!!!"


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Elementalos

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by VoidInsanity View Post
Scruffy the current changes to his Q are terrible and just turns Skarner into a Hecarim clone mechanically, spamming Q for the sake of spamming Q. Skarner players like his current Q because it rewards you for sticking to the same target, it rewards you for sticking to something. Your Q remaking doesn't reward sticking to a target, it just rewards spamming the Q. That is Hecarim in a nutshell do not turn Skarner into that. We don't need two Hecarims.
Except Skarner spams Q for the sake of spamming Q even if the target isn't moving. It's already basically the same mechanic (sort of) as hecarim.


Quote:
Having a heal was a huge thing for Skarner no matter how you played him
Given that never even putting a point into E was a common skill build? Not really.