Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Thales

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I quite like this new iteration. Seems better designed, and fixes some of the more problematic elements of his design. Just one corner case I'd like clarification on: I feel like it would feel pretty bad if you hit someone with E, then ult them so that ult procs the slow. The bulk of the slow from E, which is a pretty huge part of his power, it seems, would get wasted while he's busy dragging them around the map. This might lead to a situation where optimal skill use is rather counterintuitive. I don't know if this is an issue, but might be worth considering.


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Ferocitus

Member

07-30-2013

Edit: This was posted before I saw those changes which increase his speed buff

I think one of the things wrong with Skarner is the % of movement speed he gains when using his W
I took a look at all viable junglers with active movement speed bonuses and here they are:
Skarner MS:15/17/19/21/23
Volibear MS:15%+MS towards Champions:30/35/40/45/50
Evelynn MS:30/40/50/60/70
Gangplank MS:8/11/14/17/20
Hecarim MS:Over the course of 3 seconds Initial Speed:25% End Speed:75%
Nocturne MS:While on his Q:15/20/25/30/35
Nunu MS:8/9/10/11/12
Rammus MS:Over the course of 7 seconds Initial Speed:3% End Speed:165%
Shyvana MS:30/35/40/45/50 however, decays over the time of 4 seconds if not extended
Udyr MS:15/20/25/30/35 however also ignores unit collision

Adding on to these, Gangplank can be a jungler, however most people don't play him as a jungler, but as a top laner, something Skarner can't do as well, so Skarner is more suited to jungling as Gangplank is suited to top laning.

Also, as for Nunu, he can boost an ally as well, which in my opinion is much better than Skarner's MS buffs because thats not just one person, its two, making the laner you're helping much faster and getting them to the enemy rather than what Skarner does: Getting the enemy to the laner.

Udyr however has a bigger increase with a percentage of 5, as well as adding the ignoring of unit collision, however it is only for 2 seconds in the beginning, while Skarner has his boost for 6 seconds, but it is easily broken at level one, which makes Udyr's level one Bear Stance much more of use because it cannot be broken, and it goes through units, and Skarner's W can easily be broken in a shorter amount of time than Udyr's Bear Stance lasts, as well as the fact that his Bear Stance has a much lower cooldown than Skarner's Exoskeleton.

As for the others, they are all faster than Skarner, the point of explaining these specific champions was because their movement speed buff was either slower or of a less duration than his, yet it is still better as just explained.

TL;DR I'll be blunt, I want Skarner's Exoskeleton to be faster so if I missed anything that's worse than Skarner's W, feel free to tell me, I would gladly tell you why Skarner's Exoskeleton should still be faster.


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Locke64

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Keep his escapes in mind too. By removing the aoe slow from q and nerfing the initial speed from w, you're removing both of them. I think what makes skarner unique is that he's very sticky and at the same time fairly slippery. He can pin down a target long enough for his allies to take it out, and then thanks to his shield, ms steroid, and slows, get out alive. Emphasize his mobility and cc aspects. The first iteration did a pretty good job with that. To balance it out, I'd like to see him rely a little more on his teammates to deal the damage rather than himself. This would relieve some of the "toxicity" of 1v1 situations.


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Averath

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Removing the heal from E allowed us to do a few really great things for skarner. One, it allowed us to lower the E mana cost significantly because it would be problematic if he was able to sustain without large mana costs. Also, it allowed us to buff up the W shield, which keeps him moving faster for longer. If he ends up being completely unviable top lane, we can always put the heal back on E.
I'm personally glad to see the heal removed from E, which allows Riot to buff him in other areas. From my experience, typically playing Skarner in the jungle, the heal was hard to notice. I gained more health back from MBR back in S2.


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Knight of Right

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I just want him to go really fast :'(


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KevinDelMarr

Senior Member

07-30-2013

As long as Skarner doesn't become a Hecarim 2.0 I'll be fine. So annoying hearing ppl call Hec an inferior Skarner back in Season 2, I would hate to have seen Hec nerfed constantly only to see a Champion very similar take his place

The best thing Skarner needs is counterplay.


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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Some additional details about the current changes:

W
-Cooldown is lowered back to 14s from 18s
-Speed amount is increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Shield values are buffed up to compensate for the loss of heal
-Speed ramps up for the first 3s and then stays maxed for 3s

E
-Cooldown is still 10s (with auto attacks its effectively ~5s)
-Slow starts 80% for 3s that decays

With the current changes, he definitely feels more powerful as a pre 6 ganker. He also is much more reliable getting into fights in the late game.

Removing the heal from E allowed us to do a few really great things for skarner. One, it allowed us to lower the E mana cost significantly because it would be problematic if he was able to sustain without large mana costs. Also, it allowed us to buff up the W shield, which keeps him moving faster for longer. If he ends up being completely unviable top lane, we can always put the heal back on E.
I don't get the point of the W changes. Why does he always need a way to get into a fight sure fire?

I mean, that kind of defeats the purpose of making a skilled decision of when to go into a fight, if you can always get in with 0 problems or effort.

It was already a huge speed boost. I mean a 23% MS boost is like... 80-100 MS, and that's huge. Like, 500 MS with a HUGE uptime! Why does it need to be 50%? AND get its CD reduced?

It was already a really strong shield why buff the ratio and remove his heal? You can counter heals with Ignite...you can't counter shields...He was already a beast to take down when built for AP (and this changes to buff the ratio still seems to encourage this.), and that's going to make it worse and more frustrating.

And the E still sounds absolutely insultingly unfun. Auto-attack reset abilities are often mostly just filler and boring. It works on like, Vi, or Poppy, but even then it's meh compared to that powerful feeling of a Shunpo or a Poison Trail.

And why does he need to be a pre 6 ganker? Why does everyone you want to jungle have to have all those disables?

All these changes appeal to making Skarner another boring tanky jungler and not our scorpion we've come to know and love.

Like, I really really loathe this rework progress so far it terrifies me. I HATE when I'm playing someone like Ezreal and I'm on the same screen as a Vi, a Zac, a J4, a Renekton, or a Zed and they can easily catch me. Often even after blowing Arcane Shift, unless I have my team to babysit me.

It doesn't give me any chance to outplay them, or them any real chance to outplay me. The skills might not be pointclick, but the effect is the same. Don't be near them, or die and have no chance to escape.


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Averath View Post
I'm personally glad to see the heal removed from E, which allows Riot to buff him in other areas. From my experience, typically playing Skarner in the jungle, the heal was hard to notice. I gained more health back from MBR back in S2.
Madred's Bloodrazor didn't have lifesteal... unless you mean something else with the acronym?


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yago Xiten View Post
I don't get the point of the W changes. Why does he always need a way to get into a fight sure fire?

I mean, that kind of defeats the purpose of making a skilled decision of when to go into a fight, if you can always get in with 0 problems or effort.

...

Like, I really really loathe this rework progress so far it terrifies me. I HATE when I'm playing someone like Ezreal and I'm on the same screen as a Vi, a Zac, a J4, a Renekton, or a Zed and they can easily catch me. Often even after blowing Arcane Shift, unless I have my team to babysit me.

It doesn't give me any chance to outplay them, or them any real chance to outplay me. The skills might not be pointclick, but the effect is the same. Don't be near them, or die and have no chance to escape.
Skarner is in a bad spot right now because he gets in with too many "problems or effort". He's easily kited without his speed boost. BotRK and Iceborn Gauntlet make this issue even worse, not to mention the amount of escapes Skarner has to deal with.

This won't make Skarner be able to "always get in with 0 problems or effort." Remember all those Udyr changes, especially the tweaks to Bear Stance and the +5 flat movespeed per stack of his passive? That helped Udyr a lot without changing who he is or making him OP, and this potential change would do the same for Skarner.


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Some additional details about the current changes:

W
-Cooldown is lowered back to 14s from 18s
-Speed amount is increased from 15/17/19/21/23 to 30/35/40/45/50
-Shield values are buffed up to compensate for the loss of heal
-Speed ramps up for the first 3s and then stays maxed for 3s

E
-Cooldown is still 10s (with auto attacks its effectively ~5s)
-Slow starts 80% for 3s that decays

With the current changes, he definitely feels more powerful as a pre 6 ganker. He also is much more reliable getting into fights in the late game.

Removing the heal from E allowed us to do a few really great things for skarner. One, it allowed us to lower the E mana cost significantly because it would be problematic if he was able to sustain without large mana costs. Also, it allowed us to buff up the W shield, which keeps him moving faster for longer. If he ends up being completely unviable top lane, we can always put the heal back on E.
Hi Scruff, those W changes look really good, and I understand why the heal would be removed. But to preserve what Skarner players enjoy, please keep the slow on Q, and put the attack speed buff on E (like your original idea). That way it's better defined too: Q is the CC spell, while E (an autoattack modifier that grants attack speed upon activation) is the attack steroid spell. With that we could even choose to put extra points into E for more attack speed, instead of leaving it at 1 point for the base slow.