Skarner, I miss your kind

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Dizeazedkiller

Junior Member

07-30-2013

For the love of Skarner take these changes and just make another champion clone and leave Skarner alone. Effectiveness isn't the issue. If these changes are made it WILL NOT be Skarner anymore, and he will be a husk of his former glory. He doesn't need a half rework he just needs some number changes and antiflash back. If any of the changes being considered are put in Skarner is just going to be another Evelynn or Karma to me. I'll never play him again. And that makes me sad.


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xiondisc

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Sorry if this has been posted before. I would really like it if Skarner's ult would still go off when champions like Ezreal Arcane Shift away, but they don't get pulled back to Skarner. What I mean is Ezreal would still get locked up and dragged by Skarner, but he would be an Arcane Shift away from Skarner. Maybe have it slowly pull them closer, rather than instantly pulling them to Skarner. This way they have a bit more time use QSS and it doesn't completely negate their Flash, Arcane Shift, etc.


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Zerid

Senior Member

07-30-2013

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?

The pull. His ult, he uses his stinger and pulls someone. Wish he got a speed increase once he latched on to someone.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Only maxing two spells lvl 1 - 5(has always been my personal prefrences as his E does not offer any help to ganking), most junlgers are at least worthy of putting points into all 3 spells as it helps them gank.

The bug fix, it used to be that no one could escape skarner. Now when you charge into a team and hit ult as the carry flashes away what are you left with. Nothing. Blitz and Thresh can pull a hero to their team and its not even their ult. I understand his ult suppresses a target, but blitz can pull someone into a stun/silence.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner? Nothing. His slow is good for ganking champions early level without a dash or a leap or a jump. Most champs played top now have all things to make his pre 6 ganks not worth ganking. Jayce has a speed burst and a knock back.

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?

Clear the jungle faster and have good pre-6 ganks? Is that the question? Zac, Naut. Amunu. Malph, Maok. All these heroes have strong cc and can clear at roughly the same speed with roughly the same sustain.

Clear the jungle and deal damage? Jarvan, Hec. Jarv isolates a target with his ult and offers aoe CC with toss stun. Hec deals damage, has sustain, scales into late game, offers cc with his ult. Hec struggles early like Skarner.

If you notice junglers like skarner aren't being played as frequently. Skarners ult deals damage to a single target just like the following: WW, Noct, rengar (kinda). Jungler is currently picking up the CC in the team role.


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VoidInsanity

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Ok I'm done. Here is my take on Skarner. Instead of increasing his damage and mobility (because that is what Hecarim is) I focused on making him more viable as the bruiser tank he was in season 2.

Quote:
Problem
Skarners Season 3 Problem - He just isn't tanky enough to stick to people anymore. Thats it. He just needs his numbers updated to fit season 3 mechanics. Currently RiotScruffy is looking at reworking Skarner, however his current approach is to turn him into Hecarim with a shield instead of a heal, which is missing the point entirely. The problem with Skarner is he has been "replaced" by Hecarim because their roles and gameplay are the same, but Hecarim scales better in all stages of the game. The utility Skarner offers in season 3 is not unwanted, he just cant preform it due to the damage mechanic changes in season 3.


Proposed Changes
  • Energize unchanged.
  • Crystal Slash upon successfully hitting a champion will cause skarner to dash forward slightly forwards if he is moving (Think of how Trundles old Q used to work). Heals instead of slows, heals for double if it kills a unit.
  • Crystalline Exoskeleton Movespeed/Attackspeed changed. Passively reduce attackspeed of units that attack Skarner. Upon activation gain a shield and bonus attackspeed based on the number of currently effected units until the shield breaks. Passive is disabled while on cooldown.
  • Fracture heal becomes a skillshot slow, slow scales based on distance from Skarner. The further away from Skarner, the greater the slow. Can be cast while moving.
  • Impale bonus effect added if target champion becomes isolated at the end of the duration (To reward players for creative drags instead of using it as a 1.75 second CC. Dragging someone into isolation should feel rewarding).


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Roablin

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unfearing View Post
This would make his W more frustrating to deal with, and completely wreck his sustain though. Junglers just aren't designed to be powerful gankers and have tons of sustain, and the mechanic of being able to burrow would be insane to his ganking potential.
A ganking ability on his W that is more impactful is as I said, a tradeoff for losing the perma-slow. The kit I posted doesn't necessarily give Skarner tons of sustain, but it preserves jungle and lane functionality while providing a warranted buff to Skarner's initiation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Yago Xiten View Post
(Make sure to read the whole thing, I do offer a lot of feedback here.)

Now I don't want to senselessly "hate" or whatever...but...honestly, all of these changes seem absolutely utterly awful and destructive to him being a fun character.

Like, if these changes were implemented, I honestly would pretty much beg for a refund on him. Not even for the IP back, just more so in case of the rare chance I might random him some time. That isn't a character that I'd even remotely want to play anymore.

I was never for the Q alternating slow, and I definitely foresaw that issue of it being confusing to keep track of and just plain terrible feeling, even if it is mechanically balanced.

I'd much prefer a powerful slow that takes two or three stacks to reach full effectiveness, but decays quickly. Makes him still able to permaslow, but if he gets stunned, or they Flash, that they can easily get away from him.

That also makes him more consistent and less kitable. As of now, he has to walk up, Q, then get off another Q and he suddenly gets this massive slow. It's awkward, and though Q is solid and scales well off AP the fact that you have to hit twice can really make AP bruiser Skarner feast or famine. (He should be AP Bruiser, IMO, we have far too many AD ones and his AP style is fresh and fun).

Quick comment, though, how does his permaslow feel anti-fun but Frozen Mallet's ok? Because I find Frozen Mallet to be incredibly toxic and anti-fun to play against, I just love it when Vi, Renekton, and Riven use their sixteen gapclosers to jump on me and then there is literally no hope of escape. Skarner you can actually get away from.

I don't like the W change very much because it makes it too much like Hecarim and let's be honest, Hecarim has plenty of issues with how his E works, it basically lets him close ridiculously huge distances, and it feels discouraging to see him not just steadily gaining on you, but accelerating at a massive speed towards you and it just ends up pointless to run.

The E On-Next-Hit change sounds just absolutely awful and incredibly boring. An auto-attack modifier...how...unique. We only get one of those every other champion or so. And it's so similar to Vi's, too.

"Never a useful ragned poke/nuke and that didn't fit into skarner's effective range"

Just, what? His E was honestly a fantastic poke ability and it had a lot of power, like say, Draven's passive. It just wasnt' recognized.

The fact that it was ranged gave him a way to kinda stay safe and play things out until he got the moment to run in and strike. You know. Like a real scorpion. It felt so satisfying to bide yoru time in the lane, E'ing and managing your mana and trying to whittle your opponent until you could go in for a trade. It was a skillshot, it had plenty of counterplay, and it was balanced. It also gave him a way to actually do something after his target did escape him. You talk about feast or famine gameplay, but isn't removing his ranged attack going to make this more of an issue, unlses you buff his numbers? Because he only has one range, melee, he's going to have to be broken and always able to stick and get to his target or he's useless. That's just not very fun, I'd say.

I much prefer the way he is now, that he has to get into range with his wit and his team. Not everyone needs to be a Vi or a Zac or a Jarvan that just always is in range

Kitable should be how a lot of melee should feel, because they pack a lot of power and it's a very defined weakness. If you water him down and take away his strengths but make it so he's always having a good game I don't really see the point in Skarner or any chammpion anymore.

I mean, not every champion needs to be self-sufficient. It's a team game. Sure, it sucks to be kitable when you're a Skarner trying to duel an Ashe, but it sucks for Ashe when she can't fight against Vi because she just gets leapt on every time and unless her team is there to save her she just dies.

It's much better when teams have to intelligently clash so that they can have good positioning, and not just have it all handed to them with all the gap closers and reliable kits.

It's a huge problem in LoL as is and this rework reeks of it.
You have all of my agreement.


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getchomablayo

Junior Member

07-30-2013

There seems to be a lot of fallacy in this thread. After reading all the posts and being an avid skarner player i want to debunk this "perma slow". The perma slow only comes after about 20% cdr reduction.

There are many games where the cool down on Q prevents the perma slow during the early levels. I feel the only thing that really needs to be looked at are his W, E and R.

The nerf from 14 to 18 seconds on his W a few patches ago was to much. It either needs a buff to the shield strength or a fix on the ap ratio or decease the cool down.

As stated through out this thread the heal on E is necessary for lanning skarner, but the mana cost is just to much to jungle with. It only needs a lower mana cost to be effective.

For his R, the only thing that is needed is a revert on the nerf a few patches ago. It is not fair for skarner to be the only champ in the game where champs that move out of range cant be ulted. You dont see this on champs like cho gath (where the ult still goes off). Maybe an increase in range will be helpful when you ult.

But back to the topic:
What makes skarner awesome
Skarner's perma slow and R make skarner skarner. If skarner does not have this I would just play udyr.

What is Frustrating?
Not being able to ult. The delay is just terrible. If skarner cant stay on a champ hes is useless. I normally jungle so i find his E use less but it is imporant to lane.

What is frustrating if im playing against skarner?
Not much. I never play against him since he is never played, but if you ward effectively, he gets countered hard since he doesnt have the ms buff like current champs.

What champs are better than skarner?
Almost all jungles have different aspects better than skarner, but overall i would say hecrim is way better. More movement speed. aoe ult and a knock back with a better heal. Also udyr has better tankiness and is just as hard to peel of as skarner


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Dizeazedkiller

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
-snip-
Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
Now for an actual useful post by me instead of my whining.

Q should stay as a permaslow. Reduce the slow duration at lower levels. If it's really that bad, half it. Put half the slow on autos when you are charged and half on the aoe. This means you have to select a target, and doesn't completely ruin the feel of a champion that was meant to be the stickiest champ NA. I really don't care about where you put the attack speed buff as long as it isn't on E.

No thanks, save this for another Champ clone. Some ideas... Make e give passive spellvamp and/or lifesteal instead of healing on hit (although this is kind of boring). Make the marks useful for something else by making them break at the end of their duration for damage/slow/etc if they aren't consumed for healing (Increasing the range could be good if this change were made). Make it so that being charged increases its healing. Rather than make it a straight up heal make it increase regen effects on him by a certain percent for some time, with the same style of every consecutive charge consumed giving less (this could help with his mana issues).

Skarner shouldnt have to make smart decisions about his slow, he should be a sticky muthuf***a who IS his slow. The enemy team should feel like they HAVE to blow summoners and ults to peel Skarner off. He doesn't need to be any more complex or smart or "super cool". He needs to be someone you are forced to keep kiting because if he gets to your carry they are dead.

E never felt like poke. It was just there for the aoe and healing. It needs changes but not a change that makes him even LESS aoe based.

Taking the heal out is great, hooray. Now AP SKarner isn't viable at all. /sarcasm -_-
He needs that heal. Your doing more damage trying to make all these complex changes to make him new meta.

Keep It Simple Stupid.

He'd be better if you just upped his ratios a bit. You guys have been getting crazy with the reworks lately. All he needs is maybe some number tweaks and antiflash back. If the enemy is dumb enough to not flash before he gets into range it's their fault for being dumb.


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Hahano

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Sorry I'm late to the party, but I love Skarner and have played many a game on him. I haven’t had time to read all of these posts, so please forgive me if this is a repeat of information, but here’s how I would like to see Skarner:

Q – Crystalline Slash: Does 25/40/55/75/85 (+0.8 AD) physical damage to all units surrounding Skarner and places a stack of Crystal Mark on them (max 3 stacks). Upon auto-attack, all marks are detonated and apply a 12% slow per mark consumed and deals 10/15/20/25/30 (+0.4 AP) bonus damage per mark.

This solves a few problems and introduces some new options for the scorpion. He can either apply a low impact slow (12%) after each use of Q on an opponent or wait until a second mark is landed on them for a higher impact slow (24 or 36%). This will allow a Skarner to guage when the best time to slow down his opponent would be, keeps the slow non-scaling to prevent perma-slow abuse and allows a nice slow on first hit three-stack targets in teamfights. It also prevents mid level abuse scenarios, but still rewards Skarner for attack moving properly in a duel or gank without mindless Q mashing.

In a teamfight, this will allow Skarner more peeling options as someone he has not hit with an auto-attack can gain stacks and he can have somewhat of an Udyr effect where he can just claw slap for peel or chase on any target that’s been hit with his Q over the duration of the fight. The bonus damage per stack is just a rework to help his clear. Now spamming your Q isn't as necessary because after 3 stacks are on, you're dealing good bonus to the little guys and can just focus on beating up the big one.

W – Molt (name change): Skarner bursts out of his crystalline exterior to reveal his hardened exoskeleton and shed slow status effects. Gains +85/130/175/220/265 shield and removes all slows, grants 5/8/11/14/17% MS.

The change to W is a personal thing I wish he had, and that’s somewhat like Evelynn’s ability to remove slows. Skarner being kited is a huge issue, so being able to blast through a slow helps those silly IBG Ezreals and forces a team to actually burn a hard CC spell or more than a passing Q to stop your initiate. The shield will help with getting into the mix in case people do turn and explode you, as well as help his jungle. Movement speed is also not as necessary on this ability now, but can be retained in small amounts. This is to stop insane early speed unstoppable bug, plus most Skarners run MS quints and rush something with movement (Shurelyia’s). This rewards a Skarner that is full blown movement and doesn’t give free mobility and escape to a regular ‘ol skarner.

E – Fracture: Skarner deals 100/135/175/220/270 + (0.70 AP) magic damage in a line, mana cost: 55 flat

This move can be changed to a line nuke. This gives him a better poke, allows for a solid clear (similar to Maokai but slightly more damage to account for lack of CC) and gives him more than just a permanent slow in a ganking/teamfighting situation.

R – Impale: Range increased to 1500, cooldown decreased to 2 seconds with a reset, damage increase to 35,000

This would allow Skarner to do what I actually want to do: instantly stab and kill the other champions. THERE'S NO ESCAPING

Thanks for reading, have a great night.


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exec3

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
I still think you should try it again but in the fashion of nautilus's passive where a slowed enemy champ can't be slowed again for X seconds. Having your slashes alternate between slow and non-slow would indeed be too complicated and confusing because it alters your play pattern but the Naut style wouldn't alter your play pattern I don't feel.

Quote:
Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)
The part where you gain AS from hitting Q actually sounds good and fixes that issue of the delayed AS when you were testing it on the E, i'll be interested to see how it tests. This could be a good alternative to having the slow on the Q.

Quote:
E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)
What is the line like? Vi works because it's a short cone so you don't have to be too fiddly to get it to work as intended but if Skarner has the same line as current I think it'll be a mighty hassle getting the line to hit people. The ability screams AoE slow but on paper the play pattern sounds like you'll only get one person slowed (the person you attacked) so i'm not convinced this is a good direction.


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CommanderNazrin

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Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?
• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?
• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
-Scruff
A little late to the party but here at the least.
(Consider that I run him solotop AP Skarner most of the time as that's what his kit found the most use as for me)

I would say (as a solotop of course) one of the most fun things was baiting people into staying longer than they should and flash-ulting them into the turret. Among other things, it was rather satisfying to be low-ish in lane and land an E for a kill on minions so you could progressively heal back up to where they were.

Mana costs were a tad.. frustrating, but they were managable as long as you kept yourself in check. They offset the heal, so it was understandable. Also the damage on Q felt rather subpar but remember that I was always against bruisers so that's unsurprising. His range ended up being a problem as it's very very short compared to nearly everyone else, which ends up being annoying too. Too much CC on everyone else so you just can't stay on people.

I'd say how tanky he can get was frustrating but let's face it, that's frustrating about everyone. He was just too easy to stop given that taking out his shield would halt his movespeed buff and since nobody else built him AP the shield was always so tiny.

Everybody does his job better (from a jungle perspective). Everyone has a trainwreck of CC nowadays (Except you, Shyvana.) so it's become a matter of people walking into lanes and facegrinding their keyboards. Skarner had a short-range slow and a short range ult so unless you had flash on you (Making it so you ALWAYS have to have flash/smite) you were either useless or caught people wayyy out in lane. Whereas other champions were CC-heavy enough (Like Udyr's incessant stuns or J4's knockup and slow, Rammus's taunt, Fiddle's eternal fear, Amumu's bandage and ult, etc) to far outclass you as a jungler. Which is why I moved him to solotop.