Skarner, I miss your kind

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Yago Xiten

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
(Make sure to read the whole thing, I do offer a lot of feedback here.)

Now I don't want to senselessly "hate" or whatever...but...honestly, all of these changes seem absolutely utterly awful and destructive to him being a fun character.

Like, if these changes were implemented, I honestly would pretty much beg for a refund on him. Not even for the IP back, just more so in case of the rare chance I might random him some time. That isn't a character that I'd even remotely want to play anymore.

I was never for the Q alternating slow, and I definitely foresaw that issue of it being confusing to keep track of and just plain terrible feeling, even if it is mechanically balanced.

I'd much prefer a powerful slow that takes two or three stacks to reach full effectiveness, but decays quickly. Makes him still able to permaslow, but if he gets stunned, or they Flash, that they can easily get away from him.

That also makes him more consistent and less kitable. As of now, he has to walk up, Q, then get off another Q and he suddenly gets this massive slow. It's awkward, and though Q is solid and scales well off AP the fact that you have to hit twice can really make AP bruiser Skarner feast or famine. (He should be AP Bruiser, IMO, we have far too many AD ones and his AP style is fresh and fun).

Quick comment, though, how does his permaslow feel anti-fun but Frozen Mallet's ok? Because I find Frozen Mallet to be incredibly toxic and anti-fun to play against, I just love it when Vi, Renekton, and Riven use their sixteen gapclosers to jump on me and then there is literally no hope of escape. Skarner you can actually get away from.

I don't like the W change very much because it makes it too much like Hecarim and let's be honest, Hecarim has plenty of issues with how his E works, it basically lets him close ridiculously huge distances, and it feels discouraging to see him not just steadily gaining on you, but accelerating at a massive speed towards you and it just ends up pointless to run.

The E On-Next-Hit change sounds just absolutely awful and incredibly boring. An auto-attack modifier...how...unique. We only get one of those every other champion or so. And it's so similar to Vi's, too.

"Never a useful ragned poke/nuke and that didn't fit into skarner's effective range"

Just, what? His E was honestly a fantastic poke ability and it had a lot of power, like say, Draven's passive. It just wasnt' recognized.

The fact that it was ranged gave him a way to kinda stay safe and play things out until he got the moment to run in and strike. You know. Like a real scorpion. It felt so satisfying to bide yoru time in the lane, E'ing and managing your mana and trying to whittle your opponent until you could go in for a trade. It was a skillshot, it had plenty of counterplay, and it was balanced. It also gave him a way to actually do something after his target did escape him. You talk about feast or famine gameplay, but isn't removing his ranged attack going to make this more of an issue, unlses you buff his numbers? Because he only has one range, melee, he's going to have to be broken and always able to stick and get to his target or he's useless. That's just not very fun, I'd say.

I much prefer the way he is now, that he has to get into range with his wit and his team. Not everyone needs to be a Vi or a Zac or a Jarvan that just always is in range

Kitable should be how a lot of melee should feel, because they pack a lot of power and it's a very defined weakness. If you water him down and take away his strengths but make it so he's always having a good game I don't really see the point in Skarner or any chammpion anymore.

I mean, not every champion needs to be self-sufficient. It's a team game. Sure, it sucks to be kitable when you're a Skarner trying to duel an Ashe, but it sucks for Ashe when she can't fight against Vi because she just gets leapt on every time and unless her team is there to save her she just dies.

It's much better when teams have to intelligently clash so that they can have good positioning, and not just have it all handed to them with all the gap closers and reliable kits.

It's a huge problem in LoL as is and this rework reeks of it.


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lightdragoon88

Senior Member

07-30-2013

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Going to post this a lot for a while cause I am so happy Skarner getting looked at.


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swordcookie

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

If you are worried about losing heal, how about moving it to W, or at least some extra change. Because a skill that only grants MS and a Shield is somewhat dull tbh. Also, while it would be very nice to have more MS, it's something that you must be careful in doing (because his ult will let him drag someone away, and high MS would be a farther displacement). Perhaps you can add some power into giving it another effect, such as Tenacity, removing slow effects (like Garen's Q), or just give it an on hit healing (Like Xin Zhao).


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lackofpies

Junior Member

07-30-2013

I play skarner quite a bit and my favorite part about him is playing him in top lane, changing his E by removing the sustain would make him suck in that role. pleae don't make him a dedicated jungler like you all at riot did to nunu. (previously one of my favorite supports)


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1Q2W3E4R5T6Z7U8I

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I hope you keep the "Q spam" in his kit. I just love spamming that ability constantly.


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TVwazhere

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Bless this post!!!!!


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canbacn

This user has referred a friend to League of Legends, click for more information

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Skarner is one of my favorite junglers and I have played countless games with him. I am very happy to see my lobster man getting some much needed attention.

• What are the most fun aspects of playing Skarner?
Pre level six you can sometimes get the most amazing double kills by ganking bot lane. With red buff you are basically an unstoppable blue missile that just sticks to their *sses providing free double kills if you bot is paying attention.
Post level six, hiding in a bush and just abducting their carry to turn the game around can be pretty damn satisfying.

• What are the most frustrating/unfun aspects of playing Skarner?

Skarner gets kited all to hell. If they have a galio, ashe, nunu or disengage of any sort your ability to initiate just got destroyed. If they run quicksilver then you pretty much just got hard countered.
For jungle skarner, his E is simply pointless. He is already completely mana starved. The damage is so low it fees like he is just spitting on people. The best example i can give is comparing it to prod from worms armageddon. E basically just does 1 damage. If you do get a kill with it, your whole team cheers because its equivalent to trolling the other team. I think fixing E is at the heart of rebalancing skarner (top-lane viability would be nice). He has very potent Q, W and Ult combo. Building attack speed allows you to eliminate the cool-down on ult every time you go to jungle. His Q is amazingly powerful but balanced around the fact that you need to land it twice for the slow to be viable. His W is my favorite ability, Movement Speed (ganks) Shield (survivability) Attack Speed (damage and cool-down reduction rolled into one) is simply amazing.

• What are the most frustrating aspects of playing against Skarner?

The ult is such a power hard cc. games can easily get out of control if the front line isnt protecting their carries (pretty rare to be honest).

• Are there champions that do Skarner’s job better than he does? Why?
Honestly, they are all better than skarner. His lack of popularity is proof enough. Skarner lacks the kit to engage on the enemy, without ghost or flash up for every engage a good enemy team makes skarner feel obsolete. As such he is relegated to an early/mid game champ. Skarner's mana issue is what really puts the nail in the coffin. Skarner needs blue to jungle. If you take your second blue, many mid-lanes will grief you and make life a living hell. If the enemy counter jungles you or you lose blue in team-fight you fall hopelessly behind.
Recommended fixes: give skarner a bit more flexibility with his mana pool. If E was cheaper, he might be more viable top lane. To fix his late game ability to initiate you could always slightly increase the range on his Ult, that way he wouldn’t need to be a cookie cutter jungler. And of course, make it a hard grab using mechanics like voli or singed flip.


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Dystinct

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I'd like to ask one favour of you, I've only played skarner a handful of times, but every once in a while I get that rare ap skarner top that absolutely dominates and it's amazing to see him 1v2 and push down towers like crazy with that lich bane and actually do damage as melee tanky ap that relies a lot on auto attacks and it's such a cool intriguing playstyle that I'd love to keep it as part of the game when you rework him.


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Imarrasou

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
This looks really cool hope it ends up in live


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SolairGotSwag

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Most fun thing about him is just chasing someone down with q spam and watching their pathetic attempts to escape from my evil and pointy grasps. Also being able to snowball on skarner is more fun then any other champion. Him being able to do damage late game if you build a a trinity force or something and you just shred threw everyone

Really mana dependent to the point i take blues just so i can keep up with my opponent jungler. To the point that most games I end up getting frozen gauntlet and frozen heart because i run out of mana so fast because of how much you spam your spells in fights. How useless his e is i usally never even get it till late game and i have to because q w are all you really need. Late game trying to intaite without having to flash is either having a oracles and clear all their wards then flanking them considering they have no knock aways or cc. Or running up to their carry losing half hp just to grab them then die a second later while your team scream "REPORT SKARNER INTENTIONAL FEEDING"

Its so annoying because of how good of a duelist he is with only a blue buff making him so so hard to invade because you know if he can get to you before you finish the buff off your pretty much dead or close to be or burned flash. The bug/whatever it is where if he pulls you as you trist ult/lee sin kick him away you go with him and die most of the time.

Vi her ult is basicly better version of skarner's. Its better in most cases for ganks, longer range, can intaite better. She however cant chase as well but she can escape from most things with her q going over walls. She isnt blue relient at all.