Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Tsun Meta Knight

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiznazTM View Post
These thread are always dominated by whiny crybabies who always think new is better, Its not. Do you even play Skarner? Because it certainly sounds like you don't. It's sickening to me that Reds only care about the people who want new because half of them certainly aren't improved, Karma is a perfect example, and they never even asked Karma players what they want. And now we have a thread that says "You Ruined Karma" that has over 600 upvotes and hundreds of players begging for her to go back to normal, it's disgusting the people complaining are the ones who KNOW how Karma used to play, and know how Karma plays now. Half the people in these threads just want to see what they want to see.

Go look at the Yorick thread, it's full of "I WANT NECROMANCER CHAMPION LOL" Just make a new god damn champion. Why are you listening to these people?
While I agree with you, to an extent, you're going a bit overboard. Calm down and relax and pull it back a bit. The guy is just sharing his opinion.

Hopefully, Riot will actually take the time to listen to both sides, as both views come to create something better.

As a skarner player, I wouldn't mind losing my permaslow if it meant higher mspeeds on my W or something similar to keep me in line.


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Rauron

Senior Member

07-30-2013

I notice that a lot of people are rather scared of this rework, and that seems somewhat justified. I'm not saying it's a bad rework or that the direction is malintended; rather, perhaps some of the intent behind this rework isn't fully clear. Could you please edify as to your intent here? There are, in particular, a few questions whose answers would likely alleviate some concerns, or at least set discussion to be more productive.

1. Some people like to play Skarner as an AP tank top, a la Ryze. They like to use his heal to stay in lane for a while, and make use of the great tanky AP itemization to synergize with his sticking power. Is the preservation of this at all a priority?

2. Skarner's permaslow is an iconic part of his kit to some players in this thread. However, Morello mentioned that the permaslow lacked counterplay... to which those players are responding with the assertion that the counterplay lies in Skarner's kiteability and lack of a reliable gap closer. Could you please address that latter point, and perhaps touch on your goals for Skarner's CC power?

3. You've mentioned a desire for Skarner to go into the jungle or the top lane. This makes sense as far as lane assignment is concerned, but what do you want his role to be in teamfights and the late game? Is he meant to deal damage over a period of time, zone out/disrupt the enemy carry, peel for his carry and soak damage, CC the enemy team reliably, or what? Right now, his kit seems to want to touch all of these points, but it sounds like Riot prefers somewhat more streamlined characters.


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CDiggs

Junior Member

07-30-2013

What if the heal is moved to the shield? Like the live version's speed buff, he only heals while the shield is up?


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RandomGuy928

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

@Scruffy

I also want to say that while I disagree with the current direction of the rework as a huge fan of Skarner, I in no way intended any of what I've said to be hurtful or demeaning towards you as a person.

I understand that you're looking out for the best interests of the game as a whole, and while I disagree with some of the current decisions, I in no way intended for that to cause you distress in any way. I know you should theoretically have a thick skin given your current job, but I figured it can't hurt to throw that this out there since I tend to come across quite harshly in writing.

Keep fighting the good fight.

This doesn't mean that I agree with you.


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0xiDIzE

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Hey guys and girls, I'm back. Been working hard today on some updates. I learned a bunch of stuff testing the version I posted on here yesterday. (you all totally called some of the outcomes)

1. Having the Q slow in bursts but not permaslow worked out great. Skarner felt powerful when he slows people, but there are opportunities for them to dash away or stun him.
2. On the other hand, having his Q slow turning on and off in an alternating fashion was very hard to keep track of and just felt a bit unnecessarily complex.
3. The W speed buff is really great and skarner isn't quite as kiteable as much as before.
4. The E changes made it feel more useful, but the entire pattern of a ranged projectile with a cast time still feels very out of place in skarner's melee focused kit. I think the E may need to be redone entirely.

Based on those observations, and some of the feedback you all are giving me on here I'm working on 3 new changes to test today.

Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)

E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

Explanation:
-Moving the slow from the Q to the E creates a much more reliable and on demand slow. This is super cool for skarner because he can now make smart decisions when to hit the slow.
-Changing the E to an on next hit attack much better fits the purpose of the ability. It was never a useful ranged poke/nuke and that didnt fit into skarners effective range (melee). I also am hoping that the attack reset can have some cool synergy with his passive if you use it skillfully.
-Moving the attack speed buff to Q just seemed like a better fit as Q is his sustaned damage/brawling ability. It builds up over time so that when skarner players can stick around in a fight, they really beef up and get cooldown reduction from their passive.
-I'm still feeling out if the removal of the heal (and putting its power into the shield) is a good change. I am liking it so far, but I hear the complaints loud and clear.

I'll be testing these new changes today and bringing back the good news when I have more to update. Definitely tell me your thoughts on the changes, you guys were pretty much spot on with some of the weaknesses of the last design.

-Scruff
This all sounds really great. I think the new Skarner and new Xerath are going to get a lot of play from me.

Keep up the good work.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

From what I can tell this is what I think I've gathered from the rework:

Q- Stronger/(Longer?) slow, but isn't permanent. (Its a change or a slight nerf depending on the numbers)
W- Faster speed (with ramp up time) bigger shield. Attack speed moved to Q. (Overall Buff)
E- More damage, on next hit attack (good for sheen procs which he usually gets), wider AoE (Overall Buff)
R- "Ironing" it out so its more reliable at grabbing people. (Overall Buff)

3 buffs and 1 possible nerf. Looks like a pretty good deal to me!


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TheOneMillion

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Only on Skarner's damage, but it is pretty easy to follow up with a Q or an auto attack. I think it will make his gank power pre 6 pretty strong.
It seems like a melee having to get into melee range to hit them, THEN get into melee range again to actually slow them is a bad idea. Shouldn't skarner be rewarded the slow for getting into melee range the first time? Maybe slow the initial target right away, but mark all behind him to be slowed on detonation.


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Waschbar

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
The new E does damage to enemies behind the initial target (like Vi E) so it can still be useful as a poke in lane.
Animation please be him attacking with his tail for that attack?


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Tsun Meta Knight

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
From what I can tell this is what I think I've gathered from the rework:

Q- Stronger/(Longer?) slow, but isn't permanent. (Its a change or a slight nerf depending on the numbers)
W- Faster speed (with ramp up time) bigger shield. Attack speed moved to Q. (Overall Buff)
E- More damage, on next hit attack (good for sheen procs which he usually gets), wider AoE (Overall Buff)
R- "Ironing" it out so its more reliable at grabbing people. (Overall Buff)

3 buffs and 1 possible nerf. Looks like a pretty good deal to me!
Actually, no, Q is now an increase to his attack speed which is worthless on a champion like Skarner. This is a nerf.
W is now faster (After a certain time) and has a bigger shield (After a certain time). This is a mix up between a nerf and a buff. If you lose your shield early (Which is a problem Skarner ALREADY HAD), you never reach the full potential of your mspeed/shield.
This is a buffnerf.
E is now an on hit effect that debuffs enemies and grants them slows. Your argument for sheen procs is null due to the fact that his current Q already procs sheen fast enough on TOP of already being the built-in slow.
This is a nerf.
R will hopefully be fixed or ironed out, as you stated.
This is a buff.

I count two nerfs, one buffs, and one mix-up.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiznazTM View Post
These thread are always dominated by whiny crybabies who always think new is better, Its not. Do you even play Skarner? Because it certainly sounds like you don't. It's sickening to me that Reds only care about the people who want new because half of them certainly aren't improved, Karma is a perfect example, and they never even asked Karma players what they want. And now we have a thread that says "You Ruined Karma" that has over 600 upvotes and hundreds of players begging for her to go back to normal, it's disgusting the people complaining are the ones who KNOW how Karma used to play, and know how Karma plays now. Half the people in these threads just want to see what they want to see. Fixing Old Karma: Give her a Root on Spirit Rope or w/e.

Fixing Skarner: Changing his E. Why is this some sort of project? I don't care what Xelnath started, nobody wants reworks of perfectly balanced champions that have 1-2 MINOR issues with their kit.


Go look at the Yorick thread, it's full of "I WANT NECROMANCER CHAMPION LOL" Just make a new god damn champion. Why are you listening to these people?
Played him like 2 days ago. We won. Went very well. He was the first champion I mained when I started to take LoL seriously. (1st one I played was Trist in S1, but I quit after a day because of the community) Still one of my favorites.Still seems very usable in Normals and Silver Ranked so I'm not really in a rush to see him changed, but I know he has to be changed.

The point is they're gonna change him okay? This is about about removing the toxic elements so they can finally buff him to a viable level. They don't like unfun things. Poppy will remain trash tier until they can make her ult have fun counterplay. Skarner, same story except with his Q.

My question From Morello AMA:

Quote:
Sharing his opinion on Ziggs and Skarner, Morello noted:
"Ziggs, I think, has fantastic laning and little reason to be on a team late-game. I'd like to look at the second half of that.

Skarner represents a fighter with a lack of good counter-play. I want to fix that comprehensively before buffing."
After I got that answer I've prepared myself for this change.

However I can see none of you have done so...so I have to sit hear listening to the initial shock and overreaction from the entire Skarner community until you guys get over it in a week. T_T They want it to happen, its gonna happen, and sadly it makes sense.