Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy928 View Post
Also, just as a quick note for everyone complaining about how permaslow is a terrible thing with no counterplay:

There's an item in the game called Frozen Mallet. If you're a melee with this item, you slow your target by 40% for 1.5s every time you autoattack them.

There's another item in the game called Iceborn Gauntlet. It gives you a Sheen proc that creates a 2s, 30% slow field on a 2s cooldown.

Ashe can passively add a 2s, 35% slow to all of her autoattacks.

Skarner's Q lets him slow targets in melee range by 40% for 2s per-charge, with each charge coming out somewhere between 1-2 seconds apart.

Why is Skarner's Q considered toxic to the game while Frozen Mallet, Iceborn Gauntlet, and Ashe are all perfectly acceptable? If you think a melee with Frozen Mallet is any easier to escape from than Skarner, you're gonna have a bad time. The main difference is that the melee with Mallet probably has a better gap closer than Skarner.
There was just a Red post about that a few days ago. They are considering changing Phage/Mallet. They said they thought about making it an active, but thats too much like Cutlass. I told you guys, they're trying to get rid of everything toxic.

Although I think FM/Phage lasted this long because permaslows are only annoying early game during laning ganks and you wont have those items til mid/late (mallet at least). In mid/late game you cannot just run up to an enemy without getting hit by 5 nukes from each of the enemies.

Here it is:

Xypherous talks Phage and ( briefly ) Itemization
Responding to a thread asking for Phage to be reduced in price in order to increase it's viability, Xypherous started up a discussion on why Phage can be a problematic item if balanced appropiately.
"Phage is an item that is problematic - especially top lane, where isolation is key. Phage, when balanced, guarantees that if you are winning, you will win overall - because every trade henceforth has the chance of guaranteed death (running away).
This is different from cutlass - as the cutlass slow is not repeatable in short duration and can be overcome. That's kind of the main issue with Phage - Generic Defense + Repeatable Slow Proc means that if you win trades - you will now turn trades into kills, which isn't an acceptable trait to have in lane.
So it's a tricky problem overall - as Phage causes problems in a very isolated case - but that isolated case just happens to be every top lane conflict ever that involves auto-attacks.

The question here then becomes: When do we want Phage to be good - and what do we want it to good for."


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
if you wanna cherry pick their wording choices, fine. But the case still stands, They won't be lowering his power, they just are adding more chance to react to his punishment. If it were too good Q woulda been nerfed on live. But clearly it hasnt been. They havent touched him at all aside from the Ultimate and his Mana consumption. It's not "too good" its just annoying.
I find every form of Critical Strike "Annoying" why isn't that being removed?

Huh?

Why can't I complain and get a toxic mechanic removed from the game?

Critical Strike = Phage.


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Bethor Kookalian

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)

-Scruff
I waited too long to post my thoughts(up a few posts, maybe last page)

Question though: Why require melee range to proc his E's slow? His problem, as I see it, isn't as much sticking once he's in melee range, but getting into melee range, especially pre-6, when red buff already applies a melee-slow.


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IcyOps

Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Yes, the ramp up has been working out so far. Its still part of the new kit.
I hope you mean ramp up as in an instantaneous one, not gradually like Hecarim's.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiznazTM View Post
I find every form of Critical Strike "Annoying" why isn't that being removed?

Huh?

Why can't I complain and get a toxic mechanic removed from the game?

Critical Strike = Phage.
I already posted about that:

Quote:
There was just a Red post about that a few days ago. They are considering changing Phage/Mallet. They said they thought about making it an active, but thats too much like Cutlass. I told you guys, they're trying to get rid of everything toxic.

Although I think FM/Phage lasted this long because permaslows are only annoying early game during laning ganks and you wont have those items til mid/late (mallet at least). In mid/late game you cannot just run up to an enemy without getting hit by 5 nukes from each of the enemies.

Here it is:

Xypherous talks Phage and ( briefly ) Itemization
Responding to a thread asking for Phage to be reduced in price in order to increase it's viability, Xypherous started up a discussion on why Phage can be a problematic item if balanced appropiately.
"Phage is an item that is problematic - especially top lane, where isolation is key. Phage, when balanced, guarantees that if you are winning, you will win overall - because every trade henceforth has the chance of guaranteed death (running away).
This is different from cutlass - as the cutlass slow is not repeatable in short duration and can be overcome. That's kind of the main issue with Phage - Generic Defense + Repeatable Slow Proc means that if you win trades - you will now turn trades into kills, which isn't an acceptable trait to have in lane.
So it's a tricky problem overall - as Phage causes problems in a very isolated case - but that isolated case just happens to be every top lane conflict ever that involves auto-attacks.

The question here then becomes: When do we want Phage to be good - and what do we want it to good for."
And crit strike is programmed in a way where (as a red put it) it will force a crit if there hasnt been one for a while, depending on the crit % the character has, so its not entirely random. Also randomness is usually a low tier attribute to rely on. Many random-chance-relying characters in many games aren't very good, unless the prize is instant victory".


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Trivle

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Will the new E have charges like Vi's E or will it be a cooldown only spell?


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G33KAT70N

Junior Member

07-30-2013

IMO, E and Q need to be reworked. Ganks are hard enough with the need of q-q ing a champ to actually slow, and e doesn't really do anything other than heals.


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Iccirrus

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyOps View Post
I hope you mean ramp up as in an instantaneous one, not gradually like Hecarim's.
It's gradual,though depending on the base speed boost it could still be pretty solid...hm. ult,w,ghost,run the hell out


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Roku66

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotScruffy View Post
Only on Skarner's damage, but it is pretty easy to follow up with a Q or an auto attack. I think it will make his gank power pre 6 pretty strong.
I think the E should have an extremly small cast animation or able to be cast while he is moving would be ideal.


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Mestergrog

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsun Meta Knight View Post
I didn't realize you could just truant up to an enemy carry and ask them nicely to let you get your slow procs with your melee range.

What a great idea. Surely no one has instant blinks, like Ezreal. Surely no one has targeted dashes, like Lissandra and Zed. Surely no one has a simple dash that nulls all slows active on them, like Graves or Nidalee.

Why didn't I just think of simply buying gauntlet for all of my kiting problems.
You misunderstand what they meant. In order to perma-slow, you would be making use of Skarner's passive to spam Q and continuously reapply the 2 second slow, so that would put you in melee range anyway. (Even with 20% CDR, there is still an 0.8 second no-slow "downtime" if you don't lower Q's cooldown with autoattacks). So, a Skarner without a built-in permaslow would still be able to permaslow with Gauntlet.

It has nothing to do with the blinks and dashes you mentioned. Skarner's obstacle is getting into melee range, a problem stemming from his lack of gap closer, and that problem already exists right now. If the permaslow were removed from Skarner's kit, it wouldn't make any difference with that particular problem. It would just make him less able to keep targets within melee range, without Gauntlet.