Skarner, I miss your kind

First Riot Post
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MaingoSeven

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
There's no counterplay once it begins.

I already replied to someone about this issue. Please read that. It's about how Riot doesnt' like toxic stuff and they're removing anything that can't be reacted to, like oneshot combos and chain CC.
How about you read the rest of what I wrote, there's quite a bit of counterplay there.
Ignoring it doesn't make it any less factual.


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Tsun Meta Knight

Junior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sgt Necro View Post
Looks like Skarner would have to get Iceborn Gauntlet then :/
I didn't realize you could just truant up to an enemy carry and ask them nicely to let you get your slow procs with your melee range.

What a great idea. Surely no one has instant blinks, like Ezreal. Surely no one has targeted dashes, like Lissandra and Zed. Surely no one has a simple dash that nulls all slows active on them, like Graves or Nidalee.

Why didn't I just think of simply buying gauntlet for all of my kiting problems.


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Bethor Kookalian

Member

07-30-2013

My thoughts on Skarner:

1.I support your idea to remove the 'counterplay' associated with Skarner's AS steroid, but I also think this should apply to the MS buff. Partly this is because you "can't make the shield big enough" for the counterplay to be of value, and partly this is because perma-haste is less toxic than perma-slow once Skarner gets to melee range(it allows his opposition to reposition faster, while retaining some of his ability to stick).

2.I like the idea of repurposing Skarner's E, but think there's a more prime option available. You want to remove the perma-slow from Q, which I can understand. I suggest moving the slow from the Q to the E. Combined with an increase to range on his E(perhaps combined with a smaller missle width), this would increase Skarner's ability to engage targets at range cleanly without his slow being tied to his Q.

3.Personally, if it would help free up his power budget, I'd wholly support lowering his ult's CC duration. I'd hate to see him re-nerfed simply because his ult duration was holding him back at the competitive level, and as a Fighter-class champion, he should be able to handle most foes without high-duration suppression.

Full kit summary:

Passive: Live values
Q: No longer slows
W: No longer loses AS/MS when shield breaks
E: No longer gives healing proc, instead is now balanced around being Skarner's slow/engage tool
R: Live values


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaingoSeven View Post
How about you read the rest of what I wrote, there's quite a bit of counterplay there.
Ignoring it doesn't make it any less factual.
Eh I didn't like your tone.

There's no counterplay. There's ....foreplay? XD There's things you can do to prolong the inevitable, but you slip up once and you can just put down the controller and go get a coffee while the ICs toy with you. There is literally absolutely zero ways to stop a perfect CG. There's no button combo, no little trick to escape, you just wait for them to mess up.

I already said this is not about being OP. The red in the thread said...

WE WILL NOT BE NERFING SKARNER

...this is about making it more fun for the opponent. Putting some reactionary space between the now much stronger and probably longer lasting slows, so they can get him off of themselves with a summoner/knockback/speedboost. It'll literally be the same when you get IBG anyways! Q->trigger IBG proc->hit them with the IBG proc->E Slow procced with Q -> IBG proc-> etc... Perma slow once you get the item....in mid/late game, when its now risky to get close and perma slow a unit without getting swarmed by 4 angry enemies protecting your victim.


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ShiznazTM

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
Eh I didn't like your tone.

There's no counterplay. There's ....foreplay? XD There's things you can do to prolong the inevitable, but you slip up once and you can just put down the controller and go get a coffee while the ICs toy with you. There is literally absolutely zero ways to stop a perfect CG. There's no button combo, no little trick to escape, you just wait for them to mess up.

I already said this is not about being OP. The red in the thread said...

WE WILL NOT BE NERFING SKARNER

...this is about making it more fun for the opponent. It'll literally be the same when you get IBG anyways! Q->trigger IBG proc->E Slow procced with Q -> IBG proc-> etc... Perma slow once you get the item....in mid/late game, when its now risky to get close and perma slow a unit without getting swarmed by 4 angry enemies protecting your victim.
Permaslow makes people think Skarner is "Too Good"

Permaslow being removed. Because it's "Too Good"

Skarner is now unviable. That's a huge ****ing nerf if you ask me.

Frozen Mallet is permaslow. Rylais is Permaslow. Red buff is permaslow, Gangplank's passive is permaslow.

What the ****'s the problem?
Quote:
so they can get him off of themselves with a summoner/knockback/speedboost.
I can't tell you how many times someone has knocked me back the second I Slow with my Q, and then I can't get back into range to re-proc it, and I have to do it all over again with the distance they gained. You have 5 seconds to re-energize. A solid knockback 2 seconds after Skarner's Q means you're getting away scott free.


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Bombkirby

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiznazTM View Post
Permaslow makes people think Skarner is "Too Good"

Permaslow being removed. Because it's "Too Good"

Skarner is now unviable. That's a huge ****ing nerf if you ask me.
if you wanna cherry pick their wording choices, fine. But the case still stands, They won't be lowering his power, they just are adding more chance to react to his punishment. If it were too good Q woulda been nerfed on live. But clearly it hasnt been. They havent touched him at all aside from the Ultimate and his Mana consumption. It's not "too good" its just annoying.


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RandomGuy928

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Senior Member

07-30-2013

Also, just as a quick note for everyone complaining about how permaslow is a terrible thing with no counterplay:

There's an item in the game called Frozen Mallet. If you're a melee with this item, you slow your target by 40% for 1.5s every time you autoattack them.

There's another item in the game called Iceborn Gauntlet. It gives you a Sheen proc that creates a 2s, 30% slow field on a 2s cooldown.

Ashe can passively add a 2s, 35% slow to all of her autoattacks.

Skarner's Q lets him slow targets in melee range by 40% for 2s per-charge, with each charge coming out somewhere between 1-2 seconds apart.

Why is Skarner's Q considered toxic to the game while Frozen Mallet, Iceborn Gauntlet, and Ashe are all perfectly acceptable? If you think a melee with Frozen Mallet is any easier to escape from than Skarner, you're gonna have a bad time. The main difference is that the melee with Mallet probably has a better gap closer than Skarner.


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Locke64

Senior Member

07-30-2013

If his 1v1 potential is what makes the permaslow a problem, just lower his damage and make him rely more on his team to take advantage of the permaslow. Then the way to "out-play" the opponent is to permaslow with allies around, and the way to "counterplay" is to have your own allies around to help peel. I still like the first idea of a shorter but initially more powerful slow though. It allows gaps for counterplay but still feels like a permaslow if the enemy doesn't/can't counterplay. (actually, would a building slow be better than a decaying one?)


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MaingoSeven

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
...this is about making it more fun for the opponent. Putting some reactionary space between the now much stronger and probably longer lasting slows, so they can get him off of themselves with a summoner/knockback/speedboost. It'll literally be the same when you get IBG anyways! Q->trigger IBG proc->hit them with the IBG proc->E Slow procced with Q -> IBG proc-> etc... Perma slow once you get the item....in mid/late game, when its now risky to get close and perma slow a unit without getting swarmed by 4 angry enemies protecting your victim.
I personally find a ranged champions with Darius ult damage on every auto attack who also have a % max HP nuke core item that slows me and hastes them AND built in escapes more toxic than anything that Riot has ever nerfed.

Skarner is strong because he's allowed to stick, if you make him much tankier with much higher damage it will still be a nerf since he has to stick to a target to do anything useful.
These changes will break Skarner one way or another, UP or OP based on numbers alone.


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Flana Scarlet

Senior Member

07-30-2013

Quote:
Q
-Reverting the pattern back to the old way where once you have crystal energy you keep it up as long as you keep hitting Qs
-Removing the slow from the crystal energy all together (its moving to E!)
-Hitting enemies with Q now gives skarner an attack speed buff that stacks up to 3 times (this is beast)
Oh god that would have been weird if you lost empowered Q over and over. I like the current version you have a lot more (even more than live) because you are straight on about the way Skarner wants to play. Letting Q build up attack speed is a great way to get the slow off of it and not make it a really hard decision about dps or slowing a dude. I really like this change.

Quote:
E
-Ability reworked from a line projectile to an on next hit attack
-On skarner's next hit he deals bonus magic damage to the target and all enemies behind the target in a line (similar to Vi's E)
-Targets hit are marked with crystal energy
-When damage is dealt to targets with crystal energy they are slowed significantly for a few seconds
-No longer grants attack speed (moved to Q)
I also really like this iteration of E. It solves a lot of the problems with having to stop and cast on a mobile melee champion and interrupting your play style. That said, I'm curious about how the cooldown and damage will look. I've never liked lane Skarner, but the loss of the reliable skillshot that goes beyond melee will hurt him. The loss of a heal will also hamper AP Skarner's survivability pretty badly. I don't like either of those things, and I'm glad to see the heal go if it means Skarner gains a little more complexity and interesting decisions (beyond mash q/w), just point out that lane Skarner may be either effectively dead or relegated to a top bruiser-ish build instead of AP.

Overall I seriously like what you've got for us right now, the changes do sound like Skarner is becoming a much more interesting champion without losing any of the real impact he has, while dealing with the problems of things like perma-slow pretty well. Really can't wait to get my hands on him and try him out.